L'Eglise Aristotelicienne Romaine The Roman and Aristotelic Church

[Kalixtus]

As the Pope has instructed, we (particularly Fenice and I) will discuss the issue of increasing our military and establish campaigns.

First and foremost, we need to clarify which areas we will specifically develop campaigns for.

In my opinion, there are three main areas:


1. The military itself - including the guards, papal, episcopal guards, etc.
2. Military orders
3. Mercenaries


Have I forgotten anything?

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[Sixtus]

The Holy Armies also include the Papal Navy, which has a great need for an admiral, captains and of course sailors.
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Eskerrik asko Iñési sinaduragatik

[Fenice]

We should reflect on a problem: how to attract new forces and maintain them over time? There are material rewards and there are immaterial rewards, but beyond that, there is motivation, which, to be maintained over time, must arise from a set of reasons.
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[Cathelineau]

I believe this debate is necessary:

I am in the process of taking stock of the campaign which only amplifies the state of affairs of what I explained previously.

I believe it is important that the military functioning of the Church evolves profoundly and mutates to respond to dynamic and reactive logics.

I realize that centralized command has become cumbersome and almost impossible to manage, especially with the current deficiencies of the holy armies in terms of hierarchy.

For this to work everywhere, we need centralized commanders known and recognized by everyone:

I advocate making cardinal priests/deacons zone leaders. They are competent and recognized as experts in the areas where they are appointed and with the help of the Congregation are better able to appreciate the reality on the ground for the direction of the forces. For example, I don't know the German reality, Kalixtus knows it much better than me, the opposite is also true for Brittany. Add to that the language barrier and it becomes complicated.

I believe that we would have a lot to gain from thinking along these lines. Especially since some dignitaries may have a tendency to be reluctant to mobilize.

Then, about the Pontifical Navy I am very skeptical, having led a Duchy and a maritime Grand Duchy where ports are a major subject, having a fleet represents a cost and an occupation with crews trained and ready to sail. I think we must be fair and grant our flag to those who ask for it without having excessive but logical ambition as long as the Church does not have its own port.

Then motivation is an important subject linked to activity, we have allowed our soldiers to die for too long in citadels where we were only guests, these orders are now empty.

It will also be necessary to energize the apostolic chamber because everything is linked and we have suffered from its shortcomings.
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[Adelene]

I'm no expert on military matters, and thank God I've never held a weapon other than a kitchen knife.

But having witnessed this mobilisation, I can only confirm the need for better organisation, a better distribution of responsibilities and a more effective chain of communication.

I don't know whether giving cardinals commands is appropriate. What I can confirm, however, is that for France, the Primate is supposed to be the person most in touch with the field and with the lower clergy. I think I can say that the Primacy of France is an important asset, in that it centralises and updates every week all the clergy in France, not only the bishops, but also the deacons, administrators, presbyters and parish administrators. We can also list diocesan canons.

We also have the means, and sometimes use them, to write In Gratibus to all these people. I would like to thank the members who help me with this task. There are a few people of good will who give a lot of their time to ensure effective communication.

What's more, as I am also Prefect General of the Apostolic Chamber, a clear link is facilitated. But this will not be the case with my successor as Primate.

The only link the Primate lacks is that of pontifical nobility. But we could imagine that the pontifical ban could be added for communication purposes.

This seems to me to be a feasible and effective way of working, as far as the Primatie de France is concerned. I don't know whether such a model can be similarly applied elsewhere.

As far as the navy is concerned, I don't know enough about it to give my opinion, so please forgive me.
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Son Éminence Adelène de Kermabon - Cardinal de Saint Nicomaque de l'Esquilin - Archevêque de Bordeaux

[Kalixtus]

Kalixtus listened to the words and then took the floor.


We have the big issue of communication
We have the big issue of structure (barracks, garrisons, naval harbours, etc.)
We have the big issue of training
We have the big topic of the type of army

What is part of the Holy Army and how are these parts organised
(navy, bishop's guards, papal guards, military orders, etc.)

We have the big topic of hierarchy and chains of command
We have the big issue of motivation


The topic of mercenaries must be considered separately. They are only available for a certain period of time and under certain conditions and contracts and must inevitably be paid in gold.

Have I forgotten something?

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[Cathelineau]

To respond to Avelene

The Primacy of France is sometimes well maintained, sometimes not, it is not always easy for the Church to keep an eye on the Primates when the Cardinals are not there.

The consistory cardinals come here and we know them, hence the interest in making them responsible on a subject which is quite close to what they do in political-diplomatic matters, or at least what they are supposed to do.

For the rest, yes, everything is quite accurate even if they are related subjects.
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[Adelene]

Responding to his Breton colleague, not without grimacing when his name was spelt out.

I'm in a good position to know that Primacy sometimes moves forward like a horseless carriage. And what is true today may not be true tomorrow. But for the current mobilisation, the French Primacy could have been useful.

I'm not suggesting that the Primate should be involved in the discussions or the strategy. I'm just suggesting that we use the strengths where they exist. Incidentally, I would remind you that it was to the Primacy that the mobilised people who were lost without instructions turned for help.

As for making a link between here and the Primacy, there will always be at least one cardinal from the French-speaking Consistory to do so.

The communication problem we all agree on can, in my opinion, find part of its solution in the Episcopal Assemblies, which are a precious source of information linked to the field.

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Son Éminence Adelène de Kermabon - Cardinal de Saint Nicomaque de l'Esquilin - Archevêque de Bordeaux

[Cathelineau]

Yes, except that my remarks mainly target the other Primacies. France, without being an exception, is apart. But just to talk about the French-speaking world, the other two Primacies are very different from yours. It is the same for the Primates dependent on other consistories, you must take this parameter into account, the Primates can help, but at the local level the direction must return, I think, to a cardinal.

Quite simply because the nature of a cardinal is to lead, he can even command armies, this is provided for by canon law.

By sitting here, they are a valuable territorial network and we must rely on them to compensate for our current shortcomings due to the disappearance of the hierarchy of the Holy Armies.

A cardinal will have the advantage of mastering canon law, dogma and above all knowing the local context of his geodogmatic zone. This is why he is here, unlike a bishop who does not necessarily have, and it is regrettable, this knowledge at a desirable level, this is absolutely not a criticism of the broadcasting congregation. of faith, this is an observation since the Reform of the Church 7 years ago where the appointment of bishops evolved to no longer allow a real selection from above.

Finally, and this is a significant point, a cardinal has a rank higher than other milites who can, in the case of great masters, have a rank equivalent to a bishop according to custom. Here no more debate and it will be able to reintegrate the order which has been dispersed in recent years.
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[Fenice]

My personal experience, gained during the Venetian crusade, when I was Camerlengo, taught me a few things, which I share with you as a contribution and suggestion.

For communication to work, there must be a chain. Each person who knows a local reality must be charged only with the task of following the group in that area (supplies, movements, special needs, etc.) and must report daily to those who coordinate at a higher level.

The people who co-ordinate at this level, in turn, must report to those in higher command.

There must then be a group of local appointees, who must gather information on the enemy: numerical consistency, movements, actions; this information must be given daily to the higher command.

It may be a good idea to involve the cardinals, but the role of informants and coordinators of local groups must be given to the laity, otherwise they will not feel empowered.
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[Kalixtus]

Just to clarify how this topic works - I just listen to what you all say and try to sum up the stuff into the topics so we get a clear overview.

What I can say now is - we shouldn't and couldn't call for new applications and new members if we not make a clear foundation and solve all the topics.

If we don't present future soldiers and guards a functional system, then they will immediately leave.

The marketing campaign will be big and try to use all options we have, including direct communication and advertising as well as the public announcements and the newspapers we control. Since this campaign will be hold on, in all countries, it will be the biggest campaign ever started by any entity on the continent.

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[Roderic_]

The mobilisation that has come to an end has undoubtedly left us with a bitter taste in our mouths, as far as the organisation is concerned. On the one hand, we have different branches within the papal troops. And I think this is what we need to address first. Why? For the simple reason that we cannot think about the hierarchy of command when we are not clear what the branches of the armies will be.

We have:

- Pontifical nobility (which is very great)
- Military orders (As far as I have been able to see, many of them are almost extinct and their internal organisation is unclear.)
- The papal and episcopal guard, (are there any members?)
- the papal navy. (defunct)
- Volunteers

So, we need to clarify whether I am missing branches from the troops or whether I have too many. And once we have this, we can look at how to organise the hierarchy of command. Internally and as a whole
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Cardinal Bishop // Cardinal Vicar Grand Inquisitor // Prelate of Honour of His Holiness //
Archbishop sine cura of Sassari and Urbino // Bishop sine cura of Urgell // Chancellor of the Order of Saint Nicolas V .

[Kalixtus]

There is a bad culture of thinking that a Noble is part of the Army that is not true.

A Noble is not a servant for war - his oath is bound in an auxilium - yes. But that is not a replacement for a real and healthy army.

These days I have the feelings, that secular powers tend to think they can trust on the nobles only and that is a big mistake.

Every noble can say no to a liege lord and then what happen? You lost your noble who is more than just a soldier, he is advisor, staff, minister, what ever you want and what ever agreement you have. He is more worthy than simply be seen as part of a military construction.

The military serves in protection and security and are warriors, knights, paladins.

Let us please make clear in that very important difference and don't put automatically the nobles into the military as so many secular fools are doing and making the whole idea of aristocratic, noble roles to worthless or at least meaningless member of the war machine.

If you think this way - than the liege lord is nothing more than a farmer, you tend to grow oat on the fields that belongs to him. Nobody would see it that way.

Of course nobles are bound to the duty of protection, and they can be called for auxilium in wartimes, but they are not the main part of the holy army.

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[Roderic_]

Are we not talking then that the bulk of people who have responded to the uprising are currently nobles? But if you assume that they are just decorations, then we don't have to take them into account in the organisation. So, let's just leave it aside as you propose and above all, let's stop naming so many every year.

So, enlighten me, what are the troops the Holy See is counting on for the war? Because the Episcopal guard, according to the statutes, is only for guarding. To accompany clerics on journeys and to act as police for the inquisition.

But you have only criticised my distribution. What is your proposal for the military branches of the papal army?
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Cardinal Bishop // Cardinal Vicar Grand Inquisitor // Prelate of Honour of His Holiness //
Archbishop sine cura of Sassari and Urbino // Bishop sine cura of Urgell // Chancellor of the Order of Saint Nicolas V .

[Kalixtus]

It would be helpful, and I mean this seriously, if we conduct a constructive and rational debate here, that we do not encounter each other with ideological and emotional statements, Roderic.

I never claimed that the nobles are merely decorations. It would be decent and respectful of you not to put these words in my mouth. Thank you!

In your statements, it appears as if the nobles are searched and created only to become soldiers, and that is incorrect. Period!
They are not soldiers; people attain the status of nobility because of their contributions to the Holy Mother Church, not because they are particularly skilled at wielding a sword and shield and shedding their blood for the Church. Aristocracy is the rule of the able and not of the sword.

This distinction is important!

Of course, the nobles will play a role, but they are not part of the Holy Army. They are an additional possible military instance called upon if necessary. The nobility swears to Consilium, Auxilium, and Obsequium. Auxilium is only one third of the whole cake, not the entire cake. I urge you to consider this immediately when speaking of the nobility as if they were the existing military power. They are by no means a natural and regular part of the Holy Army; otherwise, we might as well close the papal heraldry congregation and its associated courts, the senate, and everything that comes with it.
Then we can stuff the nobles into a barracks and only bring them out of the closet when Rome is attacked, and we need some nicely decorated soldiers with medals, jewel-encrusted swords, and shields with pretty banners. Then the nobility falls naturally under the jurisdiction of the Congregation of the Holy Army, and that's it.

No? Then we agree that the nobility is apparently more than just a pawn on the battlefield. Especially you, who works in the field of heraldry, should know, emphasize, and defend the difference.

***

As for the Guards, we have come to the right question. This brainstorm is indeed about the question of the military, not the nobility, and if we find that we need to address it at this point, then we should.

The Guards are also just one part of the whole cake. I'm talking about soldiers who directly commit to the Holy Army and are not members of the Guards.
What should we call these soldiers? Perhaps Papal Legions? They could form the Holy Armies along with the Guards and other military institutions like the Guard and the Navy and the Military Orders.
And then, in addition, there are two fundamentally excluded groups - the nobles in Auxilium and the mercenaries. They would subordinate themselves to the command structure of the Holy Army but formally would only be part of the Holy Army when summoned as such or, in the case of mercenaries, bought.

This would mean that the Holy Army would consist of many parts that can always be put together individually according to requirements, and would always be subject to ONE command structure and ONE organisational structure in a clear hierarchy that is important and right for the Church. A mission of the Holy Armies is then put together like a list of ingredients.

For one mission we need the Papal Guards, the Papal Legion and perhaps a few mercenaries = Holy Army
For another mission we need an Auxilium, the Guards and the Orders = Holy Army
et cetera

Regardless of the composition, the command structure would remain the same. These would be the important foundations.

There will be people who would like to serve in general in a Bishop's Guard but do not want to directly subordinate themselves to the Holy Army (the Papal Legion, Military Order, etc.). There will be people who prefer to be subordinate to a Military Order, and others who want nothing at all and become mercenaries. The Holy Army will always only be formed when deployed. The individual parts can act independently of each other but must be controlled, directed and trained by Rome (nobles and mercenaries excluded, of course).

Our task is to find an appropriate format for the people and make an offer.

Instead of asking me for miracle solutions, Roderic, it would be helpful if you made some constructive remarks instead of questions. I am interested in how you envision shaping the Holy Armies and whether you find the existing laws sufficient or if we need to take concrete measures here. Also, I have not heard any statements from you regarding the other points that I have highlighted as important aspects. Perhaps you would like to involve us all in your thoughts on this. I would be very interested in that. Thank you so far.

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