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L'Eglise Aristotelicienne Romaine The Roman and Aristotelic Church Forum RP de l'Eglise Aristotelicienne du jeu en ligne RR Forum RP for the Aristotelic Church of the RK online game
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Lun Oct 07, 2019 6:43 pm Sujet du message: |
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My dear Brother Gian - who created this Coat of Arms? As this is not the version that has been approved by the pontifical Court and is therefore not officially accepted.
Your accepted version is this:
which I have done by my own hands - so could you please clarify this? _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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Gian_maria
Inscrit le: 07 Aoû 2018 Messages: 266 Localisation: Arezzo - Repubblica Fiorentina
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Posté le: Lun Oct 07, 2019 8:57 pm Sujet du message: |
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"Msgr Jolieen, my coat of arms was made by imperial heraldry, because I'm feudal knight. As you can remember, when I asked for a coat of arms I was "bounced back" once by imperial heraldry, once by pontifical heraldry, letting me really unsure on this matter. Now, your answer makes me think my present coat of arms isn't the right one for me, and, believe me, it' really frustrating.
Now, I'm either feudal knight and bishop: can you explain me what kind of coat of arms I should have and what heraldry should make it? I'm really confused about this. I tried to understand it by myself, but I clearly missed the goal: help me!"
* Please, let me kidding a bit about it, beacuse I'm really lost. _________________ † Vescovo e parroco d'Arezzo - Vescovo sine cura di Cortona - Scrittore del Sant'Uffizio - Vice-prefetto italiano di Villa San Loyats - Priore dell'Abbazia Cistercense di Fornovo † |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Lun Oct 07, 2019 9:13 pm Sujet du message: |
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The imperial heraldry is in no way authorized to use the ecclastical charges/ surrounders such as the priest dignity.
The right way to do would be to have a "civil" knighthood Coat of Arms and your priest Coat of Arms seperately which is currently only due to the fact that there is no treaty between the imperial heraldry and the pontifical heraldry. Otherwise we would be able to make a rightful fusion Coat of Arms.
I thus will have to adress this issue since the fault was not done by you but by the imperial heraldry who should have acted rightfully which they did not by using our charges.
The work that has been done with your Coat of Arms does not meet the pontifical standards for example the usage of the "listel" has been executed in a wrong way.
I will have to see with my superiors about this case - for the moment I will personally (just like last time) take care of your Coat of Arms and make a rightful version of your bishop Coat of arms.
The violation of the rules has not been done by you - so that is none of your personal business to feel sorry about. _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Mar Oct 08, 2019 12:40 am Sujet du message: |
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Here you are Brother - as said due to the fact that there is no current treaty between the Imperial Heraldry you have to have a ecclastical Coat of Arms and may have a civil one without the ecclastical charges showing your knight Coat of Arms. It will be up to you to decide which you are wearing as it is not possible to use both or to combine them at the moment. Keep your eyes open if by any chance there will be a new treaty between the pontifical heraldry and the imperial heraldry the situation will change. But that only means that the pontifical College would be able to make a fusion of both your personal one and your knight Coat of Arms with the rightful ecclastical charge. _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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Gian_maria
Inscrit le: 07 Aoû 2018 Messages: 266 Localisation: Arezzo - Repubblica Fiorentina
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Posté le: Mar Oct 08, 2019 7:27 pm Sujet du message: |
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"Thanks a lot, Mother Jolieen!
Just to be sure: I can use the ecclesiastical coat of arms or the civil one, but never together. They're both valid, but for the church I'm not a knight and for the Empire my ecclesiastical roles aren't acknowledged. Is it right?" _________________ † Vescovo e parroco d'Arezzo - Vescovo sine cura di Cortona - Scrittore del Sant'Uffizio - Vice-prefetto italiano di Villa San Loyats - Priore dell'Abbazia Cistercense di Fornovo † |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Mar Oct 08, 2019 8:16 pm Sujet du message: |
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To break it down to a simple explanation - yes. At least when we talk about picture language a Coat of Arms is speaking.
As said if there is at some point an announcement about a treaty between the imperial heraldry and the pontifical heraldry you would come back here.
There is still something that does bother me a bit. Usually a knight Coat of Arms does only show your personal Coat or the Family Coat of arms. Therefor we would usually only add the knight crown to your current Coat of Arms. I do wonder why you have two different personal Coat of Arms now.
For the imperial heraldry they should simply put their knight Crown on top of your personal or family Coat of Arms without any other surrounder since it is a civil Coat of Arms. _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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Gian_maria
Inscrit le: 07 Aoû 2018 Messages: 266 Localisation: Arezzo - Repubblica Fiorentina
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Posté le: Mer Oct 09, 2019 8:16 pm Sujet du message: |
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"I fear it's my mistake.
Till I was created knight, I hadn't my family coat of arms, because I was no noble and I thought it was unnecessary. Then, I became knight and I asked for a coat of arms to imperial heraldry, but they sent me here because I was a priest. When I asked here for a coat of arms fit for my new civil rank you answered you couldn't satisfy my request and made the coat of arms you presently used.
Nevertheless, I had the necessity to take my civil oath as knight and I asked again to imperial heraldry, because the coat of arms you made wasn't fit to my civil rank (please, consider the fact I asked several times how I should act and I didn't understand much more than the fact that imperial and pontifical heraldries hadn't a mutual acknowledgement treaty).
Differently to the first time, imperial aralds agreed to make me a coat of arms and used the request I made initially (the one you couldn't do due to different rules pontifical heraldry has). Because of my ignorance on the matter, I didn't bring the one you made and, adding mistake to mistake, I asked for ecclesiastical surrounders and I thought that coat of arms was fit for every occasion.
Now I understand it was a sum of mistakes and it's the cause of the present situation, so I apologize.
In your opinion, is there a way to fix this misunderstanding?" _________________ † Vescovo e parroco d'Arezzo - Vescovo sine cura di Cortona - Scrittore del Sant'Uffizio - Vice-prefetto italiano di Villa San Loyats - Priore dell'Abbazia Cistercense di Fornovo † |
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skioppo
Inscrit le: 07 Juin 2011 Messages: 16
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Posté le: Mer Oct 09, 2019 8:29 pm Sujet du message: |
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Markus, si presentò nell'ufficio preposto, per chiedere la realizzazione del proprio blasone, e disse
Eminenza, in seguito alla mia nomina a Barone di Bomarzo richiedo la blasonatura e la realizzazione dei sigilli.
Poi compilò la richiesta
1, nome IG esatto: Skioppo
2, nome RP e titolo(li), di nobiltà eventuale(li),: Markus GianMaria Casanova, Marchese di Serravalle, Barone di Caorso, Barone Imperiale di Giessen
3, funzioni precise in seno all'EA + Collegamento(ti), verso la nomina(ne),: Nobile Pontificio, parroco (laico) di Parma
Citation: | Il mio attuale blasone è questo:
E la patente nobiliare Pontificia è questa:
Citation: | * Skioppo : barony - Bomarzo
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Citation: |
Lettres patentes d’anoblissement
de Markus GianMaria Casanova Skioppo, fait baron de Bomarzo
Nous, Sixtus, quatrième du nom, par la grâce de Dieu, Pape de l’Église Aristotélicienne et
Romaine, en notre qualité de Souverain Pontife ;
A tous les Princes, Marquis, Ducs, Comtes, Vicomtes, Barons & Seigneurs des Ordres Équestre &
Sénatorial des États Pontificaux ; aux Prélats, Clercs & Ecclésiastiques ; aux Villes, Hameaux &
Communautés ; & à tout autre, tant nos sujets & nos vassaux que nos fidèles de toutes les nations ;
de quelque dignité, qualité & condition qu’ils soient ;
Les Papes, Nos prédécesseurs, ayant toujours estimé que la foi et l’honneur étaient les plus puissants motifs
pour porter leurs fidèles dévoués aux généreuses actions, ont pris de reconnaître, par des marques d'honneur
ceux qu'une vertu extraordinaire en avait rendu dignes. Nous avons été et sommes informés des bonnes
actions que font journellement les fidèles de la Sainte Église Aristotélicienne et Romaine pour la défense de
la foi, soit en défendant l’héritage spirituel de Notre Église, soit en se défendant contre les insultes et les
ignominies qui leurs sont dites ou faites pour cause de leur foi. Nous avons estimé qu'il était de Notre justice
de distinguer par des récompenses d'honneur certains d’entre ces fidèles afin d’emmener les autres à mériter
de semblables grâces.
À ces causes, et désirant traiter favorablement Notre cher et bien aimé Skioppo pour le
bon et louable rapport qui Nous a été fait de ses belles actions pour la défense de la foi et de l’ordre juste, et
pour les autres considérations, et à ce Nous mouvant, Nous nommons, et de Notre grâce spéciale, pleine
puissance et autorité pontificale, avons nommé et anobli et par ces présentes signées de Notre main anoblissons
et décorons du titre et qualité de noblesse ledit Skioppo , ensemble son épouse et enfants, postérité et lignée tant
mâle que femelle, né et à naître en juste mariage aristotélicien, selon ses propres souhaits et dispositions testamentaires,
voulons et Nous plait qu'en tout acte, tant en jugement qu'en dehors, ils soient censés et réputés nobles
et puissent acquérir, tenir et posséder toutes sortes de fiefs, seigneuries et héritages nobles de quelque titre et
qualité qu'il soit ; qu'ils jouissent de tous les honneurs, autorités, prérogatives, prééminences, privilèges, franchises,
exemptions et immunités dont jouissent et ont coutume de jouir les autres nobles de nos États ; ainsi que l’autorité
sur les maisons, châteaux, domaines, terres, territoires et dépendances, ruisseaux et rivières de la baronie de Bomarzo,
sise en la province du patrimoine de Saint Titus; de l’exercice de la basse et moyenne justice
sur les dites-terres et habitants de ces terres ; et de porter les armes d’icelles, telles qu’elles seront délivrées
par les Collèges Héraldiques Pontificaux.
Sous couvert du respect des règles et lois héraldiques en la matière, Nous requerrons serment vassalique,
à Nous et Nos futurs successeurs, pour les terres de Bomarzo comme il est de coutume et de droit. Les dites
terres seigneuriales sont et restent vassales de celles de leur province respective à foi et hommage, et ne
pourront être retirées ou aliénées de son territoire. Nous nous gardons en outre le droit de résilier le présent
contrat et de reprendre les terres de Bomarzo octroyées s’il Nous plaisait de le faire pour de justes raisons.
Ainsi donc, par Notre main et Notre volonté, Skioppo est fait baron de Bomarzo.
Sixtus IV
Servus servorum Dei
Ad perpetuam rei memoriam
X.II.MCDLXVII
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Grazie in anticipo. |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Mer Oct 09, 2019 8:31 pm Sujet du message: |
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Well you need to decide on one single Shield - which is your personal Coat of Arms. As this shield shall define you and symbolising you.
Non the less even though you requested the priestly surrounder, the right response of the imperial heraldry should have been "no we can not use this and put it around a new from us created Shield."
To make it a bit simpler - the pontifical Heraldry would not create a fief coat for a fief of the Empire either - right?
They do not have the ability to judge weather your priest appointment papers are rightful as they simply lack the knowledge to judge upon such facts.
_________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Mer Oct 09, 2019 9:03 pm Sujet du message: |
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Turning towards Skioppo "Could you please tell us which part of your shield belongs to which fief and who granted you each of them?" _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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skioppo
Inscrit le: 07 Juin 2011 Messages: 16
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 10, 2019 11:06 am Sujet du message: |
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Eminenza, tutti i feudi sono stati concessi dall'araldica dello SRING, tranne ovviamente la Baronia di Bomarzo
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Eminence, all the feuds were granted by the SRING heraldry, except of course the Barony of Bomarzo |
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Jolieen
Inscrit le: 28 Mai 2018 Messages: 3052
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 10, 2019 11:25 am Sujet du message: |
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Buono. E qualcuna di queste parti dello scudo che rappresentano lo stemma della tua famiglia è nostra personale?
Potresti fornirlo in una versione "singola"?
Good. And is any of these shield parts representing either your family coat of arms our your personal?
Could you please provide it in a "single" version? _________________
Cardinal-Deacon of the British Isles -Bishop In Partibus of Lamia - Prefect to the Villa of St.Loyat - Expert to the pontificial collages of Heraldry - Assessor to the Developing Churches |
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skioppo
Inscrit le: 07 Juin 2011 Messages: 16
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 10, 2019 5:28 pm Sujet du message: |
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Jolieen a écrit: | Buono. E qualcuna di queste parti dello scudo che rappresentano lo stemma della tua famiglia è nostra personale?
Potresti fornirlo in una versione "singola"?
Good. And is any of these shield parts representing either your family coat of arms our your personal?
Could you please provide it in a "single" version? |
Il cuore alato e le spade incrociate che si trovano nel rombo al centro, quella parte rappresenta la mia famiglia:
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The winged heart and the crossed swords that lie at the center of the diamond, that part represents my family. |
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Adrianne.
Inscrit le: 29 Jan 2019 Messages: 32
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Posté le: Ven Oct 11, 2019 1:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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Buongiorno, in relazione al Marchesato di Rocca Sinibalda, chiedo l'approvazione e l'aggiunzione degli ornamenti al seguente blasone:
https://postimg.cc/k6Q7H6RW
Chiedo inoltre rispettosamente, la realizzazione dei sigilli, per i quali vorrei fosse utilizzato il gatto. Grazie |
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Gian_maria
Inscrit le: 07 Aoû 2018 Messages: 266 Localisation: Arezzo - Repubblica Fiorentina
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Posté le: Ven Oct 11, 2019 3:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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Jolieen a écrit: | Well you need to decide on one single Shield - which is your personal Coat of Arms. As this shield shall define you and symbolising you.
Non the less even though you requested the priestly surrounder, the right response of the imperial heraldry should have been "no we can not use this and put it around a new from us created Shield."
To make it a bit simpler - the pontifical Heraldry would not create a fief coat for a fief of the Empire either - right?
They do not have the ability to judge weather your priest appointment papers are rightful as they simply lack the knowledge to judge upon such facts.
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"Ok, I perfectly understand your explanation.
I know the italian office of imperial heraldry is presently renewing his roster and maybe they'll change something. First of all, I can ask them to remove the ecclesiastical ornaments from my shield. I'd like that shield representing me, because there's my family symbol, the donkey (my surname - Asinari - means, more or less, donkey breeders); my personal symbol, the cat; the coat of arms of my birthplace, allowed by my prince; and the cross, symbol of my faith.
Of course, I don't know if is it possible, so I ask you: If I bring you that shield without ecclesiastical ornaments, you can accept it and add my ecclesiastical dignity symbols and consider it my unique coat of arms?
If not, I'll wait a new treaty to obtain a single coat of arms good for every heraldry." _________________ † Vescovo e parroco d'Arezzo - Vescovo sine cura di Cortona - Scrittore del Sant'Uffizio - Vice-prefetto italiano di Villa San Loyats - Priore dell'Abbazia Cistercense di Fornovo † |
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