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New King in Albania
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Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet    L'Eglise Aristotelicienne Romaine The Roman and Aristotelic Church Index du Forum -> Kisha e Arbërisë - L'Église d'Albanie - Church of the Kingdom of Albania
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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 24, 2014 8:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sir golem, at the time Albania had a city, the pope required of me to help the country has to develop and one obtained the appointment of a bishop, the creation of a second city, the appointment of an apostolic nuncio and the exceptional creation of a primatie.
I think of having made a success of my mission and to help the church has to develop, but I am a primacy and not bishops, I do not deal with the priests and of the ceremonies, I only take care has to structure Albania on the Roman model.

Gjini required separation, it badly did it
the separation of gjini was a weakness which it repented, it was sorry to the primacy, the curia and to the pope.

I am a man of love and peace, I forgive him his weakness as I want that god forgives my weaknesses and those of all the men
on the council of the pope one requested an autonomous church in conformity from the Roman law, the curia refuses and one accepts this refusal with much humility

if I give a general opinion against yours, it is because it is the only version which I have, no inhabitant, no adviser, or the king gave me another version I am obliged to make confidence has those which want to be well expressed on the subject and to give me a version

If you want a peace durable I am has your favour, ask me to put to me at the end of a table and to arbitrate a peaceful solution and I do it with the heart on the hand

You decided to pass by egal, I do not like it, but you have chance because it is an intelligent man and if it asks me to find a solution peaceful with him I would be happy to look further into my mission for the happiness of Albania

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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



Inscrit le: 11 Aoû 2011
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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 5:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Your Eminence Angelo,

I respect you and the function you fulfill in the Church in Albania, but I most humbly beg to differ in some points with you:

You say that “Gjini” was sorry about “his” action concerning the separation in front of the Primacy, the Curia and His Holiness the Pope. You also said that you forgave “his” weakness.

Yet “Gjini” who you say was sorry for his action never counter-announced in Albania that his actions were wrong, that he was sorry for those actions and that we, the believers who opposed him even under threats from the king of the time, Bartolomeus_mortis, were right to say that his actions were wrong. Instead of this he continued to rebuke us because according to his own words:



Posted: 09 Nov 1461 01:15
Gjini a écrit:

(po te donit shume prej jush kishen dhe fene tuej, tani kisha jone do ishte me e fuqishme dhe e pavarur nga kardinalt e veriut e sot do kishim vetem Shenjterin e Tij Papa Inocentin. Por si duket shumica prej jush jane te mesuar te jene te nenshtruar)

http://oi57.tinypic.com/23hx8nl.jpg

Faithful translation in English:
(if many of you really loved the Church and your faith, now our church would have been more powerful and independent of the northern cardinals and we would have today only His Holiness the Pope Innocent. But it seems most of you are used to be submissive)


That these words refer to the patriarchate can be easily double proven even because the reply in brackets was about a reference to “Gjini”s attempt to separate the church in Albania from the Holy Church of Rome. Very clearly he shows that 8 months after his proclamation about the “Patriarchate of Shkodra” he had still the same opinion about it. Instead of showing repentance about “his” errors, “he” is expressing “his” sorrow that “his” attempt was not successful.

I don’t think i need to make another comment about this.

Your Eminence Angelo said also that you gave a general opinion against mine (that our King is a heretic and not acknowledged by the Church in Albania) because it is the only version you have and no one gave you another version.


And yet the very first post in this topic, made by myself on 05 December of the year of our Lord 1461 underlines very specifically 2 main objects:
1- The King is supported unanimously by the Albanian people( he won the elections 100%)
2- The Council Elections were held in 29 November and were won 100% by Keshilli i Arberit (KA) list.


Moisi_Golem_Komneni a écrit:


Announcement from Albanian Kingdom

In the fourth day of Decemeber, the year of our Lord 1461, King Spiro ascended the throne of Albania, may his reign be long and fruitful. The King is supported unanimously by the Albanian people.



The Council Elections were held in 29 November and were won 100% by Keshilli i Arberit (KA) list. The council consists of:



23 days later “Gjini” posted saying that the new king is an usurper and heretic.

I think we have all to agree as learned man and honorable members of the Church that a king elected by the people and supported by a council elected by the people can not be considered an usurper. If we agree on this, i will continue saying that the fact of the King election and the Council election is very easily controllable and accessible by every one in the known world by reading the KAP. So certainly his Eminence Angelo is mistaken when he said that “Gjini’s version of facts was the only one he had. I am also wondering if the words of one person without substantial facts can be proof enough to announce a Lawful King usurper and heretic... I think this is unprecedented!

Your Eminence asked if we want a durable peace.

Is Albania and its lawful authorities at conflict with the Church?!

No, we are not in conflict with the Church. So we don’t have to ask for peace. We just ask to be righted on the wrongs committed to Albania by “gjini”. We ask to have a functioning Church in Albania, Church services etc. If I would suggest a solution I would propose that “gjini” be sent in some monastery in isolation to pray for forgiveness for his wrongs and to appoint some other Albanian theologian to represent the Church and to guide the faithful in Albania. I am sure this would not be difficult to accomplish, as “Gjini” “himself” was not chosen between many possible candidatures when he was made a priest and bishop of Albania, but was rather chosen as there was no other theologian in Albania in that time. This would be a very peaceful solution and the best solution for Albanian believers.

As about why did I decide to contact his Eminence Egal, I am sorry if I have maybe not respected the Church hierarchy, knowing little about it. It was not done so to show disrespect. But as your Eminence Angelo cares only to structure Albania on the Roman model and as his Eminence Egal is a inquisitor and a professor of exorcism, I thought that he was the perfect person to tell about “Gjini”.
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Egal



Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 11:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Only one thing to explain better, because of someone doesn't remember the role of the Church next to the political power and the rulers of a reign: all the clergy must always pay attention to the acts of a King/Emperor/Duke/Count/etc. , but the political involvement of the clerics into a side have to be forgotten in front of the goodness and the rightness of an election, if it is done under the Almighty's sight and in respect of the Holy Roman Aristotelian Church.

This emphasis means that no power over a land must feel independent from the holy recognition of a consecration, because of every chance to rule into this world is deeply connected with the God's plan, but otherwise no one of the clergy have to refuse to give a blessings to the governors and his/her council if they aren't heretical or dangerous for Our Holy Insititution and the Most High, Who surely choosed such way of government as the best fitting for the territory (that's what we learn as Foreign Affairs' officers).

So I trust in H. E. Angelo's words, when he says

Angelo a écrit:
If you want a peace durable I am has your favour, ask me to put to me at the end of a table and to arbitrate a peaceful solution and I do it with the heart on the hand

You decided to pass by egal, I do not like it, but you have chance because it is an intelligent man and if it asks me to find a solution peaceful with him I would be happy to look further into my mission for the happiness of Albania


and I'll be happy to manage a debate between the parts, if he and the Albanian King's representative accept.

Indeed, I invite H. E. Gjini to a job more concerning the pastoral and religious aspect of his duties and less pertaining to the personal political interests: the only politics to do in this case is working together the whole Church and in the direction closest to local reality cooperation, when possible.
_________________
H. Em. Edoardo Borromeo Galli
Bishop In Partibus of Beyrouth
Roman Emeritus Cardinal
Archiexorcist

old:http://i67.tinypic.com/254zdoz.png
older: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5503/egal2.gif
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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



Inscrit le: 11 Aoû 2011
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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Your Eminence,

This issue is trying to turn to mutual blame which is far from reality. There is absolutely no blame on Albania, its King Spiro and its people. We will humbly request help and services from even the most poor priest because our will to serve God through the Roman Church way is great. But we will never ask anything from "Gjini". After what he has done and not done he has finished with Albania and Albania is finished with him. That's why we request the Church to change its representative in Albania.

(I am a foreign affairs minister and when some state doesn't like the ambassador I send to them, though I might not agree with them I will make sure to find someone moer acceptable for replacement, for it is not logic to try to work and be friendly with someone who is your enemy or has not find grace in your eyes.)

You see how this "gjini" tried without assessment of facts, for his own obscure reasons, to proclaim our King a heretic and usurper. And “he” also has tried to sell “himself” like a repented godly man. I would like you that are the Fathers of the Church to pass your judgement in these matters. For we can not be both right “gjini” and me. And the situation of the church in Albania can not be denied.

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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 2:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

It is already what is agreed with gjini following our discussed private on this situation, an attempt at renewal of the clergy and a basic work on the population for the fidéliser has the church, I believe that it already started. the business can be suspended and one will take stock in several months to see the improvements .

It is important, for the fragile balance which we have just found, to leave time to make his work without changing the leading structure of the Albanian church, we will take stock later all together, I see that like one second birth of the church in Albania .

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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 2:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Peace triumphs over all, open with peace and the harmony will be done with the bishop
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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



Inscrit le: 11 Aoû 2011
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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 26, 2014 7:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

There can be no second birth of the Albanian Church with "gjini" still on it. And if the first birth was a failure there have to be responsibilities about it.

You choose to ignore my words, but the world can not hide behind a finger, as the truth will be truth even if we close our eyes to it.

The maximum "gjini" can make in Albania is a farce of church.

Once again I call on the Fathers of the Church, the Curia of Cardinals to take a stance on this matter.
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Gjini.



Inscrit le: 15 Déc 2012
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 27, 2014 12:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I bow before Egal's wisdom and I trust the Curia's decision.

However, it's a difficult situation here. These people, started me a trial for unclear reasons, just for their political concerns in which ones they involved me. It's obvious I become a bit disappointed with such behavior against the Church.

But if they (Moisi, King's ministers and everyone asking) close the trial, and stop trying to get the Church under their direct control, because they must respect the Curia's representatives even if the King would like a closer friend to hold this position, I have no problem to think about reconciliation.

Everyone who wants to work for the Faith is welcome in the Church, but we have to prove their truly interest on the Faith.

The Church must remain independent and neutral in this conflict. Even more, when his King isn't recognised by the whole albanian noble houses, and there was a civil war in progress just a few days before.

It isn't easy and the Church must guide every albanian faithful in the Truth. We have to be a Light of Hope between our brothers.

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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 27, 2014 1:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sir golem, what do I note it is that you are only A not to want to make effort, gjini want to make an effort, I ask has to make an effort and eminence equal want that one makes an effort

why you refuse? live in peace, agreed to forgive, accept gjini like one asks it with equal, one wants your good but for all to change it is necessary to make a last attempt for the good and the honor of church

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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



Inscrit le: 11 Aoû 2011
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 27, 2014 2:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I am sorry your Eminence but I don't understand most of what you say in english. Can you please speak in your native language? It might be better like that.

Mi dispiace Vostra Eminenza, ma non capisco la maggior parte di ciò che dite in inglese. Potete per favore parlare nella vostra lingua? Potrebbe essere meglio così.
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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 27, 2014 10:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Che cosa lo noto sono che siete soltanto A da non desiderare fare lo sforzo, gjini desidero fare uno sforzo, chiedo devo incitare uno sforzo e un uguale dell'eminenza a desiderare che marche una uno sforzo

perchè rifiutate? vive nella pace, accosentita per perdonare, accetta il gjini come si lo chiede con il uguale, uno desidera il vostro buon ma affinchè tutto lo cambi è necessario da fare un ultimo tentativo per il buon ed il honor della chiesa

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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 28, 2014 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Your Eminence,
With all respect, before making so much effort as to consider sitting down on the same table with “gjini”, we require satisfaction about the problems that have already been caused by “him”. It is exactly for the good and honor of the Church that “gjini” has not yet received the punishment he deserves by our laws. We have respected the Church on this, but you that are representing the Church on this debate show us no respect. Besides inviting us to sit on the same table with a creature like “gjini” you ignore our complaints as if they don’t exist.

We desire the Church, or better say, Monsignor Angelo to clear its position about Albania and the Albanian King, and about the errors of “gjini” which I have already proved and we need answer to our questions:

1-On what proofs have you maintained the position that our King is an usurper and a heretic?
2-Why have you not take any measure on “gjini”s inactivity in the church of Albania, and on his heavy involvement on politics and crimes against the Albanian people?


Eminenza ,
Con tutto il rispetto , prima di fare tanta fatica per considerare sedersi allo stesso tavolo con " Gjini " , abbiamo bisogno di soddisfazione circa i problemi che sono già stati causati da " lui" . E 'proprio per il bene e l'onore della Chiesa che " Gjini " non ha ancora ricevuto la punizione che merita dalle nostre leggi . Abbiamo rispettato la Chiesa su questo, ma voi che rappresentate la Chiesa in questo dibattito non ci mostrate alcun rispetto . Inoltre ci invita a sedersi allo stesso tavolo con una creatura come " Gjini " ignorate i nostre lamenti , come se non esistessero .

Noi chiediamo con rispetto e umilta che la Chiesa , o meglio diciamo, monsignor Angelo a chiarire la propria posizione in merito di Albania e il re albanese , e circa gli errori del " Gjini " che ho già dimostrato, e abbiamo bisogno anche di avere una risposta alle nostre domande :

1 - Su quali prove avete mantenuto la posizione che il nostro Re è un usurpatore e un eretico ?
2 - Perché non avete preso qualsiasi provvedimento sulla inattività di " Gjini " nella chiesa di Albania, e il suo pesante coinvolgimento in politica e crimini contro il popolo albanese ?
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vede
Cardinal
Cardinal


Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2009
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 28, 2014 3:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Your Excellency Angelo,

We as a church cannot ask for pardons on temporal matters. From what I understand, current regime in Albania suspects Gjini against something and has opened a trial.
These are purely temporal matters and must be dealt with temporal authorities.

However if Gjini feels that these actions are not against him but a manouver to bring the Church under someone's control we would like to know more and have evidence supporting this.
We should then let the Nunziature handle that situation if there is basis out there.

Also if there is evidence that the Canon Law was violated then that is the case for the Holy Inquisition to handle.

We would like to know more about why are you disatisfied with Gjini and provide us with evidence supporting those claims.

As for the spiritual life of the Faithfull Albanians which is the most important topic here I would suggest for now, until we get all this cleared out, that His Excellency Angelo takes over the diocese or the Plenipotentiary Prelate does.

If one of our Bishops is under trial for these kinds of suspicions then this is an extremely serious matter and must be handled.
Once this matter is resolved, the church will decide on the best way to handle the spiritual life in Albany.
_________________

Vede
Cardinal National Elector CEEPC
Bishop of Pola diocese
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angelo de montemayor



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MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 01, 2014 12:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Gjini agrees to make efforts for the church, I agree to make efforts with egal and egal agrees to make efforts with me, there is no tension I offer peace to you and I exchange some want peace. everyone wants to make efforts for peace and the forgiveness of the errors and the misunderstandings except golem and I note that the problem is personal between gjini and golem really it is not a question of a temporal or spiritual problem.

Both must make efforts of peace, like equal and me. golem must be imperatively inclined in front of the decision of the church to make peace.

I agree to discuss with equal finding a solution in Albania together, but golem must be calmed, not to have hatred against gjini and be inclined more in front of peace


it is initially necessary to let Albanian try to arrange the things between them, it is necessary to give them the possibility of managing them same in-house problems and if nothing evolves/moves with equal one will find a solution external which will be appropriate has everyone, are intelligent.



----------


Gjini accosente per fare gli sforzi per la chiesa, accosento per fare gli sforzi con il egal ed il egal accosente per farmi gli sforzi con, non ci è tensionamento che offro la pace voi e scambio alcuno desidero la pace. tutto desidera fare gli sforzi per pace ed il perdono degli errori e dei misunderstandings tranne golem ed io nota che il problema è personale fra il gjini e il golem realmente esso non è una questione di problema temporale o spiritoso.

Entrambi devono fare gli sforzi di pace, come il uguale e me. il golem deve essere imperativo propenso davanti la decisione della chiesa fare la pace.

Accosento per discutere con il egale che trova insieme una soluzione in Albania, ma il golem deve essere calmato, per non avere odio contro il gjini e per non essere propenso di più davanti pace


occorre innanzitutto lasciare gli Albanesi tentare di sistemare le cose tra loro, occorre dare loro la possibilità di gestirle stesse i problemi internamente e se nulla evolve con uguale si troverà una soluzione esterna che deciderà ha tutti, sia intelligente.

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Moisi_Golem_Komneni



Inscrit le: 11 Aoû 2011
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MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 01, 2014 4:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Your Eminence Vede,

I am answering you personally, as it is clear that Monsignor Angelo is not interested in hearing anything against his protege “gjini”. He keeps ignoring and deforming my clear accuses and pleas for help for Albania who has no priest and no Church Services.

I am not representing Golemi here but the Kingdom of Albania. The pretension that there is a personal problem between me and "gjini" is not just a mistake. They are deliberately trying to make it look like something personal in order to protect "gjini". To say that the problems that I brought to the Church's attention are personal problems between me and "him" is to lie.

The problems I have brought before the Church are:

1 - the full inactivity of the Church in Albania, caused by "gjini" not making any single move, or post or service about the church, but occupying "himself" with rebellions and grants and unlawful political positions, side by side with pirates and thieves and rebels to the Albanian Country and Crown.

2 - "gjini" being judged a criminal by Albanian court, and declared undesirable by the Council of Albania

3 - "gjini" declaring the Albanian king a heretic and usurper with no cause but "his" personal political reasons and anguish over loosing ground in Albania by the criminal group where Gjini participates.

I have already proved by quoting “gjini” words that he is unrepentant of his errors. His unrepentant behavior is very important for us that follow Aristotle in Albania, in the first place, because it was us who went against “gjini” when he proclaimed the pseudo-patriarchate of Shkodra. “He” can not deny that the forums of the church in Albania are empty, he can not deny that he has done nothing about the church in Albania. In almost two years of priesthood there have been just 2 baptisms by Gjini in Albania, and those two baptisms where even conducted in the same ceremony. If you need more proof of this matter, come to Albania and look for yourself the forums there, or even the forum of the Albanian church in this very same place. You can see for yourself that most of “gjini” posts in Albania are in defense of his pseudo-patriarchate, fighting against us, who never wanted to detach ourselves from Rome, especially for the blind ambitions of a bishop who calls himself archbishop and patriarch.

20/11/1461 - Lawsuit between Gjini to the Principata e Kastriotit
Gjini is charged with the act of high treason.
Bill of indictment

1 - implication in the looting of state by the criminal gang called UF.
2 - Maintaining official positions arbitrarily and without a decision by the government of the time.
3 - Use of violence and revolt against Durres municipality
4 - Neglecting the priestly duties.
5 - Use of black magic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/s2s4sk.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2iglu2w.png

These two screens show on of the grants given to gjini by his friends on the govern and the other is proof that he was harbor master of Dyrrah. All these grants and positions have been given him illegally , with no notice by the government, and with no declaration by the king or duke about appointing him harbor master. But what is worse, is that his friends in the old albanian government, when they lost in the elections and the present king was appointed king contrary to their desire, and accordingly to the desire of the people, left Albania and emigrated to Valencia, after stealing every single coin and piece of material from the State treasury, letting the mines go to their minimum level, leaving the Town Hall of Lezha with a deficit of more than 1500 coins and that of Dyrrah where “gjini” has always boasted to protect with weapons in his hands with a deficit of around 6500 coins. Furthermore, after there was a change of government in Albania and the new king, these friends of Gjini detached by force of weapons with their army the city of Dyrrah from the Kingdom of Albania and turned it to a ville franche. And the harbor master was still the same “gjini” who gave permissions to come and go in Dyrrah till the end to the pirate ships of his friends, proclaimed pirates by our legitimate king. All the world knows of the theft by Gjini’s friends to Albania. And beside countless witnesses that can testify about gjini being with these thieves and criminals, the very fact that they let him be harbor master while they usurped the power in Dyrrah, speaks very clearly about his complicity and guilt on this matter. This very “gjini” has more than once rebelled unlawfully against the town hall of Dyrrah, without any authorization by the government. But once the rebels detached Dyrrah he did not take the weapons against them, nor did he said a single word against them, but on design with them he said that our lawful king is an usurper and to make it sound more convincing, added the accuse of heretic.

That “gjini” neglected the priestly duties, is not only a matter of the Church, but also a matter of the State. The Aristotelian faith is an integral part of the Albanian State and Society and “gjini” has done anything possible to undermine the faith in Albania by forsaking his duties and the people in Albania.

Your Eminence might have noticed why I always speak about “gjini” in brackets. I think you understand the reason of this. And the reason of this thing is common knowledge in Albania. Every single one of them knows that there exists no Gjini, instead “he” is just “gjini”

Your Eminence Vede, Angelo and “gjini” keep talking about peace like there is a war going on. They say that “gjini” is willing to make efforts for the church. Let me ask you where were “gjini” efforts before my complaint? How can we trust someone who keeps making mistakes and never repents of them, but only feints efforts when there are people that hit “him” on the face with the truth?! How can the Albanian people trust the efforts of a criminal?! Why should they keep trusting this “man” when there are others in Albania who can perform the same duties, and have no criminal records or contempt toward the Curia as “gjini” has. Monsignor Angelo knows perfectly “gjini” is unsuited for that work, knows also that 1 priest is not enough for Albania and he tries to blackmail us into accepting “gjin” or there will be no peace...

"gjini" accuses me that I want to make priests some puppet, because that's his concept of politics and church - he can not understand some other report but that of slave and master, puppet and puppeteer. I will humbly ask for your testimony, because I proposed the names of the two theologians only after you and Monsignor Egal asked if there are any in Albania.

It seems there will be no solution by Monsignor Montemayor. He seems blind and deaf to every single post of mine. I require to know who should Albania officially ask in order to save ourselves from such a bishop and priest as “gjini”. I would also humbly request any cardinal that reads this discussion to present Albania’s complaint to the Curia of Cardinals and to make a judgement on this case.

I will humbly ask your grace if I might have said any words I shouldn't. I agree in principle to the proposition of Monsignor Vede that the Plenipotentiary Prelate, Monsignor Egal take over the Albanian diocese.
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