L'Eglise Aristotelicienne Romaine The Roman and Aristotelic Church

[Catriona Delacroix]

I'm becoming increasingly disturbed by the catholic nature of this RP religion. I understand the wish to mirror the religion of renaissance times, but after translating the latest bit of doctrine from the holy office, it wouldn't look out of place from an entry in wikipedia. Why?

We have the opportunity to develop something imaginative and original. We have some lovely texts written by players over the years - the creation, the prehistory etc. I love the aristotelism principles being used, the texts about Oane and so on.

And shouldn't we acknowledge the cultures and society of the kingdoms which are developed to a large extent by the players. The kingdoms are not influenced by religion to the same extent that they were historically. The RK Church does not have the power, authority and importance that the catholic church had historically.

It therefore seems a nonsense to create doctrine based on the historical culture of the real 1460s, rather than the roleplayed culture in this game. It makes this religion increasingly difficult to roleplay, and therefore increasingly unappealing, because it is so out of touch with the cultures, society and governments of the game.

RK is not a historically accurate game. Do we have to keep on slavishly copying the catholic religion and its structures and doctrine? Can we not develop doctrine that is based on the basic texts written by players, on Oanism and Aristotle and the early saints, rather than resorting to information on the catholic Church from wikipedia?
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Mother Catriona Mackenzie, Bishop in partibus of Ephesus

[Adso]

Could you please be more specific on what is an issue, for you?
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Cardinal émérite - Archevêque de Cambrai

[Catriona Delacroix]

My issue is that we continue to look to the real life catholic Church for the basis of our doctrine, Canon law and organisation, rather than creating our own based on the IG religion of aristotelism. Our RP Church has two prophets. The second prophet Christos set up the Church with some simple guidelines, but the basis for the Church was to preach how to live life according to the first prophet's teachings.

For example, excommunication. I have just finished translating a new piece of doctrine that explains excommunication in detail. Although it is well written and there are some references made to our RP texts, in effect it is a direct copy of the doctrine of excommunication according to the catholic Church that has been made to fit in with our RP religion. The justification for excommunication however is weak when we look at our RP texts. This is an example of trying to make the RL authority of the catholic Church in renaissance times fit in with our RP Church which does not have the same authority.

Can we not try to be original?
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Mother Catriona Mackenzie, Bishop in partibus of Ephesus

[Gregy]

Can we not try to be original?
The answer is: been creative and original is a more difficult way than copying the catholic religion.
I don't say I am agree with that. I say I understand that is easier to take the basis on someone and everyone know. This is the more or less inconscient way we took.
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fides scutum nostrum est,
amor telum nostrum est

[UterPendragon]

We created quite an original church ! We could even more insist on the aristotelician - and consequently philosophical - dimension of the EA, but there are so many things surprising. For instance, the way to ordain people, based on the five elements or, as you underlined, the beginning of the dogma. In fact we need to remain faithful to a historical period, that's why - as Gregy said - it is easier to keep some elements. Easier to us, because we don't have to create everything, and also easier to the other players, because the more you understand something, the more you can play with. If we created from the beginning to the end a new way of thinking, first it would take us years and years to do it, and the same time to teach it.

The main solution to what you underline is to let everyone decide what one prefers about some issues. Every cleric is quite free to celebrate a wedding or funerals the way he wants it - if you refer to CL, there are not that much indications about how to do it. Moreover, there are so many things you can use to create your own personal RP - in my opinion.
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Mort des cardinaux d'Azayes et von Frayner

[Catriona Delacroix]

I agree that the CL gives a lot of freedom for how we conduct the sacraments And I agree that we have much in the basics of our religion that is creative. I love the creation story for example and that we use Aristotle as a prophet.

My point is, now as we continue, can we not be more creative in the new doctrine that is written, so it is not taken directly from catholic doctrine, which is so closely followed it even includes the same definitions and terms.
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Mother Catriona Mackenzie, Bishop in partibus of Ephesus

[Gregy]

We can't be as creative as we want in the doctrine because it depend on the written dogma. The best way to be creative is creating a hagiografia based on a original character, not a catholic one. This is so great.
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fides scutum nostrum est,
amor telum nostrum est

[Napoleone87]

anyway proposals for changes of documents, not yet official,
they are welcome...and I do not think
there is freedom of opinion in the drafting of the texts ...
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+ S.E. Monsignor Napoleone Barberini
(Since 1457)
+ Bishop of Parma
+ Missus Inquisitionis
+ Lord of Casamarciano
+ First Chaplain of the Episcopal Guard

[Egal]

For its nature and the wish on representing a Reinassant-like, the Aristotelism wouldn't be like Catholicism in its contents, but it surely had to be interferring in politics not so less than the religion in such historical time.

I think we're not approaching Reinassance through all the contemporary lines, but we have to resemble a little such years of religious power directly influencing the social life.
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H. Em. Edoardo Borromeo Galli
Bishop In Partibus of Beyrouth
Roman Emeritus Cardinal
Archiexorcist
old:http://i67.tinypic.com/254zdoz.png
older: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5503/egal2.gif

[countess.Kathleen]

I do agree, that the church should fit the time period we are playing. However the danger ist, that any content taken from realworld catholicism ist inherently inconsistent with the teachings of Aristotle and thus inconsistent with the basis of the church philosophy.

In my opinion it's harmful to the rp church to include realworld terms and definitions of catholicism because people might miss out on the differences and the uniqueness of our faith and just say: 'This is catholicism, just with a few changed terms like sun and moon for heaven and hell but otherwise it's just the church I know from real life'

If at any point you have a chance to keep the real church out of our rp church, please pleeeaaaase do it! It started out soooo good with the creation of the world and the teachings of Aristotle. But then things slowly started deteriorating.

In fact, I originally learned the intricacies of suffragan/metropolitan terms better from wikipedia on catholicism then the instructive texts here. You might say, it's a good thing that I could use real life knowledge to learn about the game but in reality I was just 'Ooookay, this is where it stopped trying to be unique'

And of course it's more difficult than copypasting real religion. But honestly, I'll prefer reading 5 pages original material over having 50 pages of thinly veiled catholicism any time.

[{Giosep}]

Les créateurs du jeu l'ont voulu ainsi. Chaque changement important doit passer par eux et je ne pense pas que'ils soient d'accord pour bouleverser un énorme pan de jeu de cette façon.

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The creators of the game so wanted it. Every important change has to pass by them and I do not think that they agree to upset an enormous piece of game in this way.

[Gregy]

At the beginning we had the true religion because is was more realistic. The creators of the game decided to change it because it was too problematic. They ask the player to change the catholicism in the aristotlecism, a fictive relgion based on the philosofia of Aristotles, and we created the religion you know: a mix between Aristotles and the catholicism. A religion with too much originality (Aristotles's part) is not understandable for the player. A religion with too much realism (catholicism's part) can be conflictual for somes reasons like the confusions. We must maintain the balance between those two extrems
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fides scutum nostrum est,
amor telum nostrum est

[countess.Kathleen]

I understand. Thanks for the enlightening lecture on RK history. I was under the impression that it had rather been the other way round.

However, the impression remains that the philosophical part is a thing of the church's past and that everything post-Christos is governed almost exclusively by catholic-alike procedures. It starts feeling like two different churches altogether which may or may not be due to the HRP-history of our RP-religion.

I am in full agreement, that a balance should be found between the two approaches. Perhaps what Catriona and me are feeling is an indicator that in order to maintain that balance, a nudge back to Aristotle is in order to preserve/reattain said balance.

[Catriona Delacroix]

[Beyrac]

Navré de prendre part à ce débat alors que mon perso n'est pas du tout connu à Rome, mais j'ai une opinion très différente sur l'Aristotélisme des RR.

Ce qui me plaît de moins en moins est précisément ce qui semble le plus apprécié dans ce que je lis ici: tout ce qui concerne les philosophes IRL (Aristote, mais aussi Platon, Sénèque, et les philosophes du Lycée) transformés en saints et en bienheureux me contrarie de plus en plus dans le dogme aristotélicien romain. C'est d'ailleurs une des raisons pour lesquelles je m'en éloigne de plus en plus, alors que ça fait des années que mes persos sont assez proches de l'Aristotélisme romain.

A mon sens, l'Aristotélisme des RR est un syncrétisme entre le catholicisme IRL et la tradition philosophique aristotélicienne, conjuguant à la fois un fond moral et spirituel pseudo-chrétien mâtiné de philosophie aristotélicienne et de quelques rares innovations, une liturgie complètement inspirée du catholicisme, et un dogme (donc une façade) complètement remanié pour éviter les mélangismes transposant dans les RR des tensions entre les religions IRL.

A vrai dire, je suis en accord avec ce dernier argument ; en revanche, pour le mettre en application, j'aurais préféré qu'on se passe carrément de tous les personnages historiques, y compris les philosophes, donc y compris Aristote (ainsi que l'ersatz Christos), et qu'on refasse du neuf, du vrai neuf (sans que cela interdise de piocher des références judéo-helléno-chrétiennes ou que sais-je, mais sans pour autant les plagier).
Ce que je regrette, pour tout dire, ce n'est pas l'inspiration catholique de l'Eglise Aristotélicienne, c'est que le Dogme ait plus ou moins substitué (au moins partiellement) au Christ et aux saints IRL Christos, des saints retouchés, Aristote et des philosophes ayant eux aussi réellement existé (d'ailleurs, pour parler technique, l'Aristodoxie, "divinisant" en quelque sorte Aristote, est une tendance très très répandue dans les RR chez ceux qui donnent juste un vernis religieux à leur personnage, et même chez certains clercs, le plus souvent par ignorance). Et cela, au lieu de se réinventer pratiquement de fond en comble (ce qui avait commencé avec le Mythe Aristotélicien, qui est pour moi une réussite). Attention, je ne critique pas le jeu des uns et des autres, chacun joue comme il l'entend.

Mais personnellement, je n'aurais pas beaucoup d'intérêt à jouer du religieux "hors sol".
Les RR sont une uchronie, certes, mais pas une uchronie ex nihilo. Je pense qu'une bonne partie des joueurs, dont je suis, souhaite faire évoluer son personnage dans un univers non pas fidèle au XVe siècle réel, mais du moins qui en reproduise grossièrement un contexte et des principes, plus ou moins fantasmés, d'ailleurs. Et une religion simili-catholique en fait partie. C'est pourquoi il me déplairait (et j'espère ne pas être le seul ) d'avoir dans l'EA une religion franchement sans aucun lien avec le catholicisme historique. A fortiori si c'est pour remplacer les sources chrétiennes de l'EA par une religion purement centrée sur les philosophes gréco-romains.

PS: promis, je ne suis pas un Thomiste

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Sorry to take part in this debate though my character is not known at all in Rome, but I feel quite different about RK's Aristotelianism.

What I like less and less is precisely what is most appreciated in what I read here: all the stuff about RL philosophers (Aristotle, but also Plato, Seneca and all philosophers from the Lyceum) converted into saints and blesseds upsets me more and more in the Roman Aristotelian dogma. That is one of the reasons why I distance myself with it, whereas my different characters have been related more or less closely to Roman Aristotelianism for years.

To my mind, RK's Aristotelianism is a syncretism between RL catholicism and aristotelian philosophical tradition, mixing a pseudo-Christian moral and spiritual background, a clearly catholic-rooted liturgy, and a dogma (that is, a façade) which is totally reworked in order to avoid confusions between the game and RL religious tensions.

Actually, I agree with the latter argument ; however, to implement it, I would have preferred that we do things completely without historical characters, including philosophers, thus including Aristotle (and ersatz Christos) ; we could have made something new, really new (although this "new" could have been subtly inspired of Hellenic or Judaeo-Christian references, or whatever, but not plagiarizing them).
To sum up, what I regret is not the catholic background of the Aristotelian Church ; it is that the Dogma has more or less replaced (at least partially) Jesus Christ and RL saints by Christos, remastered saints, Aristotle and RL philosophers (furthermore, to be a bit specific, the "Aristodoxy", making Aristotle somehow a God, is very widely spread pattern in RK, mostly by ignorance of actual Aristotelian Dogma, especially for players who just want to make their character a little religious, or even for some clerks). That, instead of re-inventing almost totally the religious background of the Church (which had started with the Aristotelian Myth, quite a success, as far as I'm concerned). To be clear, I'm not criticizing the way each player plays, I'm not entitled to and everyone is free.

Yet, personnally, I would have very little interest playing "soilless" religion.

RK is an uchrony, I agree, but not an ex nihilo one. I think many players, and I, wish to have their character live in a universe which is not exactly faithful to what was actually the XVth century, but a universe which would at least roughly reproduce its context and its more or less fantasized principles. Which an "imitation" catholic religion is part of. That is why I (and I hope not to be the only one ) would be upset to have an Aristotelian Church frankly without any link with historical catholicism. Even worse if it is only to replace Christian roots of that Church with a purely Greek/Latin philosophy-centered religion.

PS: I swear I'm not a Thomist