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[FR] Conf(l)it d'ordres
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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
Messages: 337

MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 8:43 am    Sujet du message: [FR] Conf(l)it d'ordres Répondre en citant

L'ambassadeur de France se rendit au secrétariat des armées pontificales. Plus précisément, ce qu'il désirait, c'était rencontrer les responsables de l'Office diplomatico-religieux. C'est qu'un petit problème avait été soulevé par la création récente d'un ordre militaro-religieux du nom d'Hospitaliers, alors qu'un tel ordre existait déjà parmi les ordres royaux français... on risquait la confusion, il s'agissait de régler cela rapidement.

Bonjour, je suis Louis-Appollon de Castelviray, Ambassadeur de Sa Majesté très aristotélicienne le Roy de France. Je souhaiterais m'entretenir avec un responsable de la reconnaissance des ordres militaro-religieux...

Et il attendit.


__________________________________________________

The French Ambassador went to the secratary of the Church's armies. More precisely, he wanted to meet with some official of the diplomatic-religious affairs. Indeed, there was a little problem with the creation of a new order named "Hsopitaliers"... BUT another knightly order in France already wore this name. There was a risk of great confusion... he was there to fix it before it's too late.
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Rodrigomanzanarez
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Inscrit le: 25 Mai 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 9:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

As I recognize the Arrival of the Ambassador I organize he is welcomed dignified and gets a comfortable place to wait with a drink and a meal maybe.

Ambassador, be welcomed. It is an honour to have you here. I am Cardinal Rodrigo Manzanarez and functioning here as secretary of the Chancellor of this Congregation. Would you like to take a comfortable seat and have a drink or a Snack maybe? I will care for next steps. If you agree I would ask for a short description of your concern.

That doesn't mean I care for the whole case but help where I can and allowed to. And a short description of the concern would already help.
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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 12:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Eminence, I am delighted to meet you.

Did the French ambassador reply while respectfully bending to the cardinal (he didn't kiss his ring, though. As he was representing the King of France, it would have been inapropriate.)

Thank you, Eminence, for you warm welcome...

As he was a little bit hungry, he acccepted Rodrigo's proposal.

I'll take what you shall consider fit for yourself...

And et he took the seat.

Let me explain the king's problem: You maybe know there is a new military and religious order that was created recently under the high patronage of the Holy Church called "Ordre Souverain Militaire Hospitalier de Saint Jean de Malte".

Of course, His Majesty doesn't have any trouble to see the vigor of the faith being translated into such orders, but there is for a long time now, in France, a knightly order called "Ordre des Hospitaliers de Saint Jean de Jérusalem"...

So, they almost have the same name and the same motto: "Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum"... at least, the coats of arms and banners are different enough... but we fear there will be a big deal of confusion into this all the same.

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Rodrigomanzanarez
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 2:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Ring kissing I don't like anyway so I just don't think about it. My opposite is friendly so am I. If not, I would only be simply polite. At least I try.. but here so far it starts quite comfortable, what pleases me.

Though born and raised in Nuremberg my culture became quite international due to a lot of travels. Including a voyage into France to read some important books about theology. I got used to some delicate sorts of cheese so I hope the Ambassador would enjoy having a german piece of white bread, what is quite the same as Baguette. With some burgundian cheese as topping, sliced into small peaces so it fits perfect into the mouth. Accompanied by a small glas of whine or Grape Juice.

While that snack and drink are handed by a servant to us both and a writer is noting the concern of the Ambassador I take a seat as well and listen carefully. As the Ambassador ends the presentation of the issue I inquire:

I hope you would enjoy the offered snack and drink. The cheese on top of the bread I got to know while I was travelling through France as a theology Student. And I really like it.

Regarding your concern I hope you allow to ask, if you have maybe something in mind, how this matter can be solved.

Indeed there could be something already that would solve the concern quickly in best way for every side. Though I dont know the "opposite" side so far it's anyway helpful to gather what is possible.
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Rehael
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 4:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Le Connétable salua l'ambassadeur.

A vrai dire, l'Ordre Souverain Militaire Hospitalier de Saint Jean de Malte, n'est pas à l'heure actuelle un ordre militaro-religieux, même si une demande de reconnaissance a été déposée en ce sens.

Je pense que le fait que plusieurs ordres militaires aient le mot "hospitaliers" dans leur dénomination n'est pas problème. C'est un terme assez commun. Mais je suis d'accord sur le fait que si cet ordre devait devenir un ordre militaro-religieux, il sera effectivement important qu'il n'y ait pas de confusion avec l'Ordre des Hospitaliers de Saint Jean de Jérusalem, qui fut lui-même un ordre militaro-religieux allégeant au Pape à son origine.

--
The Constable welcomed the ambassador.

Indeed, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Malta, is not at present a military-religious order, even if an application for recognition has been made in this direction.

I think the fact that several military orders have the "hospital" word in their name is not the problem. This is a fairly common term. But I agree that if this order was to become a military-religious order, it will actually be important that there is no confusion with the Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, who was a military-religious order relieving the Pope to its origin.

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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 5:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Louis-Appollon's face illuminated itself while the cheese appeared.

Oooh, de l'époisses!

Did he exclaim in French.

You are spoiling me, Eminency. I shall thank theology for having brought you in Bourgogne... and the Burgundians for having made your life there likeable.

And he smiled, taking a piece of bread with cheese on it.

While cardinal Manzanarez was asking his question, Cardinal Rehael made his entrance. Louis-Appollon got up and bent like before, and saluted the holy armies constable.

Eminency... what a pleasure...

And he answered to both cardinals.

It is very fortunate the order hasn't been recognized yet. I think a change of name would be an honorable outcome, without too much damage for the new order. Changing the name of the oldest one would be far more complicated...

Obviously, there is no issue over Malta... even if the sovereignty on this island shall be the subject of later negociations to be officially recognized from France. But we'll see that with this new order directly.


Yeah, everything was meant to be discussed where France's interests were involved (which was everywhere, and thus, in the Mediterranean.)

We could live with "Hospitalier" or "Saint-Jean", but not with both. So, I propose the change involves one or the other.

I think it would be common sense to proceed that way. The recognition of the order is in the hands of the Consistory, I guess... It wouldn't be too difficult to ask for this small correction as a condition. Wouldn't it?


The French ambassador suggested before dipping his lips in his cup of wine.

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Rodrigomanzanarez
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Inscrit le: 25 Mai 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 23, 2016 10:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I am happy the Ambassador seems pleased so far and I smile. And furthermore it seems the Burgundian cheese was the right choice. Indeed there is something about "dinner like God in France".

And then the Chancellor is already entering so I raise and show my respect. Offering the notices, that were made. I go back then a bit and listen carefully while reading some notice and also having a bread with burgundian cheese and a gulp of whine. When the Ambassador and the Chancelor spoke an idea comes up and i propose gently:

What about "Ordre Souverain Militaire des Hospitaliers de Malte"?

Surely I don't know how the opinion of the leader of the New Order would be. But an idea on the table shouldnt hurt. An existing idea can be taken or dumped. It just shouldnt be too stupid. A non existing idea is normally much worse.
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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 24, 2016 10:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Yes, it would be acceptable.

But, the Franch royal chaplain made a further suggestion.

I would add a saint as patron... which wouldn't be John... to stress the difference. Like... well... wathever the saint... I won't decide for them.

It would look like something like "Ordre Souverain Militaire des Hospitalier de Saint 'wathever' de Malte.


He didn't know neither what the reaction of the leaders of the new order would be... He hoped nobody would have to put some pressure. A friendly and courteous outcome was highly preferable.

Do you think they will listen to you on this matter... France, as its interests are at stake, will provide you any assistance needed.

Like some plea... or some threats. The kingdom had ways to make people to give up at some point.

I also could go to Malta and convince them... if I go, could I share the message that their recognition by the Church is suspended at the condition they accept the change of name?


So, the question was: Am I going, or are you going to tell them?

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Rodrigomanzanarez
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 25, 2016 4:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I listen carefully to the French Ambassador and nod. The proposal seems valuable to me. After having thought about a possible next step while having another gulp of excellent wine I speak gently to the Chancellor and the Ambassador:

I would currently propose we all together invite the leader of the new Order here. Hopefully we will have a quick solution, that has potential for a Win-Win situation. I do feel it has! Then every decider would be present directly at the table and an agreement would be widest aligned.

I must admit I don't know the name of the leader yet. But that shouldnt be a relevant issue for it can be found out rapidly. And maybe the Ambassador or Chancellor already know?
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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 25, 2016 5:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

The French diplomat nodded. He thought the same than the German cardinal. It was in everybody's interest that there was no confusion left.

I took the liberty to take contact with the new order. We could go in Malta together... it would be the occasion to have a plain idea of what they are doing there...

The place, in the middle of the Mediterranean, was strategic enough to raise some interest in paying a visit.


[I propose that, because my puppet is already there: http://forum2.lesroyaumes.com/viewtopic.php?t=856751&start=15 I'll translate my posts from now on. I can tell there I'm waiting for you. Is it a good modus vivendi enough for you?]
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Rodrigomanzanarez
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 26, 2016 7:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I nod to the Ambassador. Indeed that should bring the quickest solution.

(just go ahead Very Happy if we all use Skype we could even use that and be even quicker. My account for RK is Aquarius171717)
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Rodrigomanzanarez
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MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 28, 2016 5:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

(sry cant get there Embarassed could you post that here maybe?)
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Michalak



Inscrit le: 13 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 28, 2016 6:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

[
Hello Jd
Rodrigomanzanarez you can not find the place ? Probably because it is on the Francophone area . I put you in the guest group and you can come and post on fofo 2

What is your pseudo in RK ? it's Rodrigomanzanarez? because Aquarius171717 doesn't exist

I found your Pseudo and given access .]
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Louis-Appollon



Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2016 8:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

[Thanks LJD Michalak...

Yeah, I didn't think about it because I had seen Nicolino posting at Malta. These language barriers on fora really are a pain in the arse sometimes.]
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Rodrigomanzanarez
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2016 11:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

(Pseudo in RK is Rodrigo_Manzanarez

Aquarius171717 is Skype Wink
Thanks for adding)
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