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ROTA Florentin vs Penitenzeria
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Profeta
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 07, 2018 9:51 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Oberon and Kalixtus,

If you want to ask specific questions about Florentin or Eduardo, do so, in order to clarify all the doubts.
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Profeta
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 14, 2019 1:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

The debate is closed we have to make a decision.
Dear colleagues, what is your reflection?
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estevan



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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 14, 2019 11:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

It's up to you to decide I can not give my opinion because I'm the one who was the prosecutor in the case against Florentin. I advise you to send an in game mp to Eduardo.
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 15, 2019 7:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    Catechesis is the heart of faith. It is important that the leaders of our Church always know what competences and what dogmatic nature they contain. But it is no less important that the canonical law is clearly respected. Florentin is guilty in this matter and I see a violation of catechesis as more significant than the missed publication of job advertisements. Personally, I consider a disrespectful treatment of the hierarchy of the Church to be a catechetical violation as well. I recommend repeating the Pastoral Maxima and the investigation/confirmation by an independent professor. In addition, confession and charitable service in the sense of the Holy Mother Church. I consider translation work to be an interesting option for the French-speaking section. Here, or at other Roman Institutions, he could prove to be useful. Meanwhile, a mentor would certainly be helpful for Florentin, whom I was also able to get to know as an insightful person. I hope I was not too wrong.


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 25, 2019 9:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sorry for the delay, but health reasons have pushed me away. Waiting for Edardo this is my thought.
First of all we have to decide about the requests for revision. Florentin complained formal defect, so we have to decide first of all about this.

1-Accusation of judicial bias: is it probable but proof enough to prove it? I do not think. the court that has not chosen a judge less suspicious of partiality must be blamed, but I see no evidence that could accuse him of bias. - to be rejected

2- The penitentiary did not propose to the defense to call witnesses: This is true. It was the duty of the court to ask if the accused had witnesses

3-The penitentiary did not propose to the defense to call on a lawyer,
The indictment was incomplete, There was NO indictment of the prosecution, the complaint was sent to the Grand Penitentiary and not to the commissioner, The judgment does not quote, and therefore does not take into account my arguments against the prosecution, The judgment does not quote the infringing articles.
: None of these things seems to me to be a formal error, but only a different use of the practice, tell me if I'm wrong ....

4- The decision to appoint Bishop Tokai as Archbishop, which is the cause of the original complaint, has not been quashed.: this does not indicate an error in the judgment, in case it could lead to a further trial for those who do not revoke the assignment if not properly formalized.

5- Florentin has NEVER said that I did not have the right to appoint a priest -The condemnation evokes a confusion on my part between a cure and an archdiocese. The sentence speaks of a candidacy that we would have omitted: Like point 3

Based on this my reflection is the following.
There have certainly been errors and lightness on the part of the court, and these are open to criticism. The question is: are errors that can lead to a wrong judgment?
In my opinion, no. These are all errors that are not related to the substance of the judgment. So I would confirm the substance of the judgment.
Rejecting the request for a penalty increase requested by the rapporteur.

Only point 2 gives me some peril. Has not having allowed the use of witnesses to have significantly affected the judgment of the judges?


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Oberon.



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MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 28, 2019 11:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Oberon had been very quiet most of the time, had thought about this case for a long time and now wanted to present his point of view. "I wasn't present in this trial, so I can't really say if the judge was really biased, because subsequent reports on the trial leave too much room for interpretation. Eminence Estevan was the prosecutor in this case, he saw the judge and could best say whether he was guilty of bias." He looked thoughtful. "I may not have enough experience in court yet, but why exactly does the court have to offer the defense the right to call witnesses? Or even inquire whether the defense wants to call witnesses? Isn't it the duty of the defense to say that they want to call a witness for their side? I have the same point of view on the accusation that the court did not offer that the defendant could call in a lawyer. I may be mistaken, but since when have "lawyers" existed in church courtrooms? According to which standard should they be chosen? I know these so-called lawyers of worldliness and they would collapse in our judicial system because they do not understand it."
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Dim Avr 28, 2019 11:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    We should not define and implement the courts as the secular, because they are not. Our laws are based on the unrestricted validity of dogma and not on the arbitrariness of individual, temporary rulers, as is also the case with the laws of secularity. I believe it is appropriate to maintain the original judgment, since the facts have been adequately judged under the law in force. The information was also available to all delinquents. Catechesis is not a devil's work, knowledge of the laws of our Church and their components is a prerequisite for all high-ranking leadership positions. I also interpret in the claim of the courts an absolute attitude that can hardly or never be interpreted, which is why we usually do not allow there to be lawyers, assistants and foreign witnesses. Witnesses are sought by the inquisitor - there are no lawyers of canon law outside the church, because only those who complete the high skill of the inquisition seminaries could be qualified enough, but the evidence always lies with the inquisitor not with a lawyer. The judgment must be legally confirmed and this case must be ticked off.


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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 29, 2019 11:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

So it seems to me that we all agree that the sentence is confirmed.
About the processes in general, it is true that the justice of the church is not the civil one, but it is equally necessary that it guarantees to all the parties a fair treatment.
I give an example about the judge accused of not being impartial. We obviously cannot know, but a good court, even of the church, should be careful and appoint a judge for the trial on which there is no suspicion of partiality.
In this matter the court of first instance was superficial. And this thing like some others found by Florentin.
In my opinion this must be detected and highlighted.

PS. Kallixtus, it seems to me that you write better English than mine [my English is bad], can you try to write a sentence that we then define together?
The main point is that the Rota does not find in the requests of Florentin errors of the tribunal of the first degree such as to clearly lead to an error of judgment, for which we confirm the sentence.
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 07, 2019 1:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    Okay i made a proposal for the text of the verdict:

    Citation:
    The Court of the Rota, the highest court of the Holy Roman Aristotelian Church, has reached a verdict. We all heard circumstantial evidence, many of them led to this verdict and were presented as evidence. The Court took a long time to examine the case thoroughly and carefully. We have extensively documented the allegations and have come to the conclusion that, despite inadequate defences and a potentially biased trial, the verdict of the court of first instance must be confirmed.

    The Court of First Instance also receives a reprimand for insufficient consideration of bias and an overly superficial investigation. In addition, in the interests of justice and fairness, we consider it necessary to review the internal procedures to ensure the same rights for all defendants in accordance with the Roman model, and to this end we order the review, amendment and rectification of the proceedings of the Court of First Instance in order to remedy this misconduct as a judgment of the Rota. This includes special care in the selection of personnel and the defence options available within the framework of the possibilities given by the CIC. This should therefore also be incorporated into this judgment, because the Rota has the elementary obligation to face these questions as well, as the highest court of the Holy Mother Church. On this occasion, the knife is also put on our own bodies.

    No appeal against this judgement is possible any more - it is final.


    So if you want to use it, you have to put it into the document and we are finished.

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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 15, 2019 9:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Thank you Klixtus

here is the final sentence, I added only one phrase.
If you give me the ok the public.

Citation:


Fiat justicia pereat mundus
Verdict 1467/1




We, His Eminence Profeta Pucci Guerra, Dean of Roman Rota, Italian National Cardinal, Bishop in partibus infidelium of Petra, Bishop of Pistoia, Viscount of Pelago e Diacceto

in our quality of Dean of Roman Rota,
declare:



    The Court of the Rota, the highest court of the Holy Roman Aristotelian Church, has reached a verdict. We all heard circumstantial evidence, many of them led to this verdict and were presented as evidence. The Court took a long time to examine the case thoroughly and carefully. We have extensively documented the allegations and have come to the conclusion that, despite inadequate defences and a potentially biased trial, none of what has been brought to our attention is sufficient to modify the substance of the judgment of the first instance, therefore the verdict of the court of first instance must be confirmed.

    The Court of First Instance also receives a reprimand for insufficient consideration of bias and an overly superficial investigation. In addition, in the interests of justice and fairness, we consider it necessary to review the internal procedures to ensure the same rights for all defendants in accordance with the Roman model, and to this end we order the review, amendment and rectification of the proceedings of the Court of First Instance in order to remedy this misconduct as a judgment of the Rota. This includes special care in the selection of personnel and the defence options available within the framework of the possibilities given by the CIC. This should therefore also be incorporated into this judgment, because the Rota has the elementary obligation to face these questions as well, as the highest court of the Holy Mother Church. On this occasion, the knife is also put on our own bodies.

    No appeal against this judgement is possible any more - it is final.



Signed and sealed on May 15 in Rome, in the year of grace MCDLXVII, under the pontificate of Pope Sixtus.

S.E. Profeta Pucci Guerra



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Oberon.



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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 15, 2019 10:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I agree with this
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 15, 2019 3:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    happy with this so i agree

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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 15, 2019 5:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

ok, verdict published, thank you all for the job.

Now that the procedures are defined we hope that the next process will proceed more quickly Smile
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