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Sixtus Pape


Inscrit le: 03 Juil 2014 Messages: 4165 Localisation: Sur les rives du Tibre
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Posté le: Sam Fév 17, 2024 5:01 pm Sujet du message: |
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With no Angevin army left there is effectively no threat to our dioceses anymore.
Given the uncooperative attitude of the local rulers and the unwillingness of thr Crown to find a decisive solution we can quietly leave the area.
We can expect that in the coming weeks the Angevin brigands will go back home and regain control of the duchy while the royal forces will gradually leave. In the end things will go back as before just like if nothing ever happened.
On the other hand the Swiss threat is very concrete and they have already attacked one of our dioceses.
While we wait for news from the Lyonnais government it would be wise to start moving our army closer to the province.
Do not forget to request and obtain the necessary permissions, in this case you can't count on the goodwill of the Crown either. _________________
Eskerrik asko Iñési sinaduragatik |
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4302 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Sam Fév 17, 2024 6:29 pm Sujet du message: |
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The Angevins are in Avranches and will return to Brittany tomorrow I think. I am having our army prepared for the journey. I think it would be good for diplomacy to ask the duchies and counts of Maine, Champagne, Orléans and Burgundy for authorization for the army of the Church to pass through. I think that diplomacy is indicated for this task, then I would like to know if in Lyonnais the Apostolic Chamber is able to provide better supplies than in Alençon? _________________
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Adelene Cardinal


Inscrit le: 08 Juil 2020 Messages: 2921 Localisation: Villa Catena
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Posté le: Lun Fév 19, 2024 9:06 am Sujet du message: |
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Brother Cathelineau, I have to admit I'm a little surprised by your comment. I've just had several hundred meals and medicines delivered to you in Alençon. Here is the list of goods delivered for you:
Citation: | - 10 Philtre Batoa
- 125 Pieces of meat
- 250 Loaves of bread
- 250 Bags of corn |
Have you contacted the archdeacon of Alençon to discuss the best way to pass this on to you?
If you need more, let me know your precise itinerary and I'll see what I can find along the way. But bear in mind that the local bishops and archdeacons I contact are obliged to contact the chamberlains and seneschals so that they can issue warrants. Sometimes several days can go by between my order and a warrant being issued. So the sooner I know your precise movements, the better I can coordinate supplies.
For your information, here is the reply I received from the Duc du Lyonnais regarding our offer to help them:
Citation: |
À Son Éminence Adelene de Kermabon, Primat de France, Cardinal romain, Archevêque de Paris et de Malines,
De Sa Grâce Artús Devirieux, Duc du Lyonnais-Dauphiné
Votre Éminence,
Nous vous remercions sincèrement pour la compassion que vous nous témoignez et pour l'aide que vous voulez nous apporter. Nous l'acceptons volontiers et nous serons heureux d'accueillir le Père Amanieu et messire Éligius pour participer à notre effort pour reprendre le contrôle de nos terres et restaurer la paix. De combien d'autres personnes disposez-vous pour venir nous aider?
Nous serons ouverts à une collaboration avec l'Église, dans la mesure de nos moyens, pour nous assurer que les diocèses du Duché soit sécurisés, car il nous importe de protéger l'Église aussi. Une collaboration préalable aurait peut-être pu nous éviter à chacun les différentes pertes encourues.
Salutations respectueuses,
Artus Devirieux
Duc du Lyonnais-Dauphiné
Le 17 février 1472

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Son Éminence Adelène de Kermabon - Cardinal de Saint Nicomaque de l'Esquilin - Archevêque de Bordeaux |
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Sixtus Pape


Inscrit le: 03 Juil 2014 Messages: 4165 Localisation: Sur les rives du Tibre
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Posté le: Lun Fév 19, 2024 4:18 pm Sujet du message: |
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The new orders, brother Cathelineau, are to move the army towards Lyonnais-Dauphiné to secure the province and our dioceses therein.
From where the army currently is, the safest route would be through Le Mans (Maine) - Montmirail (Maine) - Patay (Orléans) - Orléans (Orléans) - Montargis (Orléans) - Conflans-les-Sens (Champagne) - Tonnerre (Burgundy) - Sémur (Burgundy) - Autun (Burgundy) - Châlons (Burgundy) - Maçon (Burgundy) - Lyon (Lyonnais).
That leaves us with five provinces that must authorise our passage through their respective territories. If you are unable to do it yourself, you can entrust the Gonfalonier Diane to ask for their permission or we can entrust brother Adelene with this task, since he seems well acquainted with the local rulers.
In addition to that, you must contact all the nobles who have either not responded to the levy of the ban yet or that are still awaiting for instructions, they can reach Lyonnais directly and help defend the cities immediately while our army is on the move. Maybe finally something good will come from the initial malfunctioning of the mobilisation.
As for you, Brother Adelene, you can inform the duke that the Church is redirecting its mobilisation to assist his province, so he can expect the arrival of our army and other lances to assist in driving out the Helvetic aggressor.
We also instruct you, brother Adelene, to contact Gonfalonier Diane directly so that you are immediately aware of the army's needs and can properly account for costs and expenses. We find it absurd, to say the least, that our army is without food to feed our forces and without money to pay salaries. _________________
Eskerrik asko Iñési sinaduragatik |
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4302 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Lun Fév 19, 2024 5:27 pm Sujet du message: |
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Holy Father, the army has started the movement and we have contacted Maine to be able to enter. Isn't it normally up to the Nunciature to settle this point with the provinces?
In any case, the Primate can take care of it perfectly, he knows his country better than me.
We will also identify with Melian the nobles who are not currently engaged.
The previous comment that I made Brother Adelene relates to the archdeacon of Rouen whom you defend and who caused us to lose at least a week. I was going to give you the itinerary, but the Holy Father has just done so. _________________
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Fenice Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Déc 2010 Messages: 12333
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Posté le: Lun Fév 19, 2024 11:56 pm Sujet du message: |
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The Nunciature negotiates and includes in the concordats an article on military authorisations by the various secular governments, but these authorisations must be requested by those who know and command the Church's military forces. _________________
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Tymothé de Nivellus Cardinal


Inscrit le: 22 Nov 2017 Messages: 6758 Localisation: Cardinal Camerlingue de Rome et Chancelier de la Chambre Apostolique
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Posté le: Mar Fév 20, 2024 6:09 am Sujet du message: |
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Do you know when you will be in Orléans? see if I go directly to LD? I was on my way to join you... _________________

Père Tymothé de Nivellus | Cardinal-Evêque de Saint Trufaldini à la Porte Latine | Camerlingue de Rome et Chancelier de la Chambre Apostolique | Archevêque SC d'Avignon et Archevêque d'Embrun
"La puissance de Dieu donne toute sa mesure dans la faiblesse"
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Adelene Cardinal


Inscrit le: 08 Juil 2020 Messages: 2921 Localisation: Villa Catena
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Posté le: Mar Fév 20, 2024 3:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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We wait for the refuelling to be done before starting. I hope it will be done by this evening... Ideally, we could take advantage of the passage through Le Mans to collect money and food as well. On the road, we won't be able to count on the Orléans diocese because the administrator hasn't been in post for 10 days. But if we could recover the money stored with you, Cardinal Nivellus, then we would have enough to take our army as far as Lyon and even beyond.
I also hope to be able to take advantage of the diocese of Sens to get some supplies. _________________
Son Éminence Adelène de Kermabon - Cardinal de Saint Nicomaque de l'Esquilin - Archevêque de Bordeaux |
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Tymothé de Nivellus Cardinal


Inscrit le: 22 Nov 2017 Messages: 6758 Localisation: Cardinal Camerlingue de Rome et Chancelier de la Chambre Apostolique
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Posté le: Mar Fév 20, 2024 8:34 pm Sujet du message: |
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of course, I take everything there is in Orléans and I go down to the LD, I would like to be with you to avoid being robbed of so much money even if I walk in a group... _________________

Père Tymothé de Nivellus | Cardinal-Evêque de Saint Trufaldini à la Porte Latine | Camerlingue de Rome et Chancelier de la Chambre Apostolique | Archevêque SC d'Avignon et Archevêque d'Embrun
"La puissance de Dieu donne toute sa mesure dans la faiblesse"
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4302 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Mar Fév 20, 2024 11:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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Fenice a écrit: | The Nunciature negotiates and includes in the concordats an article on military authorisations by the various secular governments, but these authorisations must be requested by those who know and command the Church's military forces. |
Citation: | The Apostolic Nunciature is the Roman dicastery charged with the diplomatic representation of the Holy See before lay institutions, as well as with the negotiation and conclusion of Concordats, treaties, conventions and agreements of any kind subject to ratification by the Roman Curia, either by decision of the Supreme Pontiff or by a vote of the Sacred College of Cardinals. Unless expressly authorised by Canon Law or by the Holy See itself, no other institution or person, other than the Apostolic Nunciature and its diplomatic staff, may claim to represent or conclude agreements of any kind whatsoever in the name of the Holy Church, of one of its institutions or branches. |
I am sorry but in fact the Nunciature is perfectly authorized to negotiate with the provinces the passage of an army of the Church. This is diplomatic work that normally falls to him. But as I expected this answer we made arrangements to manage ourselves. _________________
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Sixtus Pape


Inscrit le: 03 Juil 2014 Messages: 4165 Localisation: Sur les rives du Tibre
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Posté le: Mer Fév 21, 2024 12:33 am Sujet du message: |
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The Swiss army has apparently left Lyonnais, either to go back to Geneva or to launch another raid elsewhere. _________________
Eskerrik asko Iñési sinaduragatik |
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4302 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Mer Fév 21, 2024 7:30 am Sujet du message: |
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I heard that. Eleanor thinks they could return to Geneva to participate in a tournament. For now this is just a guess and it is impossible to predict the future so I suggest continuing. _________________
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Adelene Cardinal


Inscrit le: 08 Juil 2020 Messages: 2921 Localisation: Villa Catena
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Posté le: Mer Fév 21, 2024 10:28 am Sujet du message: |
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After talking to the Duke of Lyonnais, he confirmed the news of the departure and his doubts about the point of bringing in the Holy Armies when the situation was under control.
To this I add that now that the periods of free voluntary service have been used up for our nobility, the cost of maintaining our army on a daily basis is estimated at 825 ecus, including pay and rations. This means that travelling to Lyon would cost 9,900 écus. Once we get there, we'll have to wait for the Helvetians to return, which may not happen, or may be two or three months away...
Add to that the fact that we are currently around 8,000 ecus in debt.
I would also add that a long mobilisation wears out the hearts of the most valiant. Especially when nothing happens.
In view of all these factors, and particularly the financial ones, I would encourage everyone here to consider the impact of every future decision concerning this mobilisation. _________________
Son Éminence Adelène de Kermabon - Cardinal de Saint Nicomaque de l'Esquilin - Archevêque de Bordeaux |
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4302 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Mer Fév 21, 2024 11:58 am Sujet du message: |
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The financial hit is not negligible and if the threat no longer exists around Lyon we can effectively demobilize. _________________
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Sixtus Pape


Inscrit le: 03 Juil 2014 Messages: 4165 Localisation: Sur les rives du Tibre
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Posté le: Mer Fév 21, 2024 8:35 pm Sujet du message: |
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Our finances are more than capable to sustain these expenses, they are actually trivial in that regard.
On the other hand, our intervention appears to have become unnecessary once again.
The demobilisation can now take place, we expect to receive the full list of everyone involved. You are, of course, also to pay all the dues including salaries, donations, undelivered food et cetera. _________________
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