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[RP imperial elections] Audience with Cesare Copona
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Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet    L'Eglise Aristotelicienne Romaine The Roman and Aristotelic Church Index du Forum -> Chancellerie Pontificale – Pontificia Cancellariae – Papal Chancellery -> Bureau des audiences ordinaires - Office of the ordinary audiences
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Oberon.



Inscrit le: 08 Déc 2016
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 7:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

"Thank you very much, Cesare, you reveal to me that my administrators are not trustworthy and therefore in four months I will dismiss both persons who have received this recommendation - for all eternity", Oberon gently noted, he had so far only attended these talks in the background and silently, but if you want to involve him so directly, he would be happy to. "There were no concrete instructions from the Vatican on how the dioceses should vote, so I made a decision myself and gave a recommendation. You seem to be confused by my decision, so let me explain in more detail why I consider you a terrible candidate for the imperial throne".

"Firstly, you have completely ignored my remarks about the fact that you are breaking an imperial law, and you have conjured flimsy reasons out of your hat that you would need a clear statement from the church. I am the Archbishop of Constance, Vice-Prime Bishop of the German-speaking area, First Vice-Prime Bishop and Cardinal Priest for the German-speaking consistory. It does not become more official when I specifically point out that a person is heterodox and that you are breaking imperial law when this person is ennobled, something you have sanctioned in your function as herald. You also seem not to have understood the meaning of this specific law when you recognise Styria and therefore her duke as vassals, because it cannot be denied that Adam Fugger is a heterodox. Do you therefore want to throw the empire into chaos and betray your own faith? After all, you want to support a heretic whose faith has condemned two of our cardinals to death, which will be implemented immediately by the Styrian army or other means if these two cardinals enter Styrian soil".

"Second, you are working with Tiberius von Staufen-Zähringen and once again you ignore my indications that this man is a serious problem. It is very irritating to know that you are willing to support this man when he practices blasphemy and slander. He denies creation, Cesare! He has said that little redheaded children should be killed! A thought that is shared by the heretic knight, a nobility you have sanctioned, and she gives him gifts at his court day and says that the blood of young redheads will help him! You have caught yourself a very special specimen of supporter, Cesare, congratulations" Oberon looked directly at him from the unusually bright eyes. "And it offended me very badly that you slandered His Eminence Calixtus and me to the Countess of Nuremberg, Cesare. You are fortunate that this is not a crime according to Nuremberg law, otherwise I would have had you reported there and brought to trial! What I still have in mind regarding the ennoblement of Diana! You have broken laws and moral values in this matter. I never bullied Tiberius, but was forced by this man to speak a word of authority and draw a line while fighting to protect his family, his vassals and also his feudal lords. From this man, who drags them all with him before an investigation by the Holy Inquisition."

Thirdly: It is incredibly entertaining that you are upset that I wrote two recommendations, your friends in Nuremberg threatened the Nuremberg Countess that they should vote for you, otherwise something would happen. You sat there in the inn and talked in absolute arrogance about the fact that you would win the elections one way or another because you would invest 300,000 coins. But you are no longer so sure that you will win? Please don't make yourself ridiculous by crying about my decision, which you yourself provoked by not being a suitable candidate to ascend the imperial throne in my eyes"

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Arnarion
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 11:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Frowns while reading the letter he took on his hands.

Each people may have his own preferences for one or another candidates and ask people to follow him. Hmm...but this letter may mislead peoples. One can believe that you are the voice of the Holy See, cardinal Oberon. Which you are obviously not, as you will agree. Your letter has been badly written and does concern only you and your friends without involving the Church nor even the German one. We'll see later what to do with that.

I therefore correct that for the time being, the Holy See does not officially support anyone. But I invite you Cesare to answer to the questions asked to you by cardinals Kalixtus, Gropius and Pamelita.

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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 1:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I remain amazed, as Primate of the Holy Empire, to learn that one of my subordinates (and subordinate above all to the Episcopal Assembly!) takes such initiatives. I apologize on behalf of the Primacy.
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Cardinal-Bishop † Dean of the Sacred College † High Apostolic Commissioner Chancellor of the Congregation for the New Apostolate † Primate of the Holy Empire † Archbishop of Pisa and Trier † Governor of the Patrimony of Titus † Marquis of Santa Marinella † Count of Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 1:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    We should not forget at this point that Oberon is also Cardinal-Priest of the German speaking area and that at this time there was no official decision of the Vatican nor any announcement that the Vatican would issue one. We do not know that either.

    This debate here, should clarify exactly whether the Vatican will issue an official recommendation or not. I see no reason to believe that Oberon was speaking on behalf of the Vatican. He spoke in the interest of the national church and thus in the interest of the geodogmatic zone, which is why this letter was sent to HIS subordinates. Primacy has nothing to do with this, nor does it have any right whatsoever to intervene in the affairs of the diocese and its administration, and even more dramatically in the sovereignty of the cardinal priest. This can be done by the Curia in the form of a corresponding Vatican proclamation, and that is what it is all about now!

    So we return to the origin of this theme - the answer of the questions.

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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 2:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Our guest is not interested in our debates, we are here to listen to him. I will explain in another place why you are wrong, Kalixtus. No Cardinal Consistory, however, can override the decisions of the Sacred College and It has decided to listen to the candidates before pronouncing on a possible support for the imperial elections. I renew our apologies to our welcome guest.

Then approaching Kalixtus' ear he added in a whisper: moreover, the Pontiff has already told you explicitly not to refer to Rome as "the Vatican" because it is a gross error that you continue to make: this error among other errors.

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Cardinal-Bishop † Dean of the Sacred College † High Apostolic Commissioner Chancellor of the Congregation for the New Apostolate † Primate of the Holy Empire † Archbishop of Pisa and Trier † Governor of the Patrimony of Titus † Marquis of Santa Marinella † Count of Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 2:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    And again Cardinal Della Scala you are trying to dilute the debate with unnecessary information and spread misinformation and fake news.
    I did not say that the Consistory is above the Sacred Curia. You are free to take note of these facts. I have said that the Consistory is above the primacy and that only the Curia as a whole decides if and whom it supports and abside this which words I use and which I do not use and what His Holiness discusses with me and what he does not discuss, that is none of your business, Cardinal Della Scala but it is definitely not the right area to discuss. I am sure i do not remind you on the internal rules of the Sacred Curia.

    If you could now concentrate on dealing less with me than with the candidate, I would be most grateful.

    Kalixtus looked punitively and disapprovingly at the cardinal.

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Oberon.



Inscrit le: 08 Déc 2016
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 3:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

"And of course you live in the German-speaking zone and have a deeper understanding of the problems that can be identified? Please enlighten me, Arnarion: You think a candidate is suitable if he slanders two cardinals in public? You think a candidate is suitable if he wants to acknowledge the Styrian duke as a vassal - a heretic whose heresy has condemned two cardinals to death? Do you think a candidate is suitable who, even before his candidacy, ignored the advice of an acting archbishop regarding a heterodox person from his diocese, in the course of which he broke imperial law? You consider a candidate suitable if his greatest supporters in the German kingdom engage in blasphemy and/or threaten at least one regent that this candidate should be supported?" Oberon looked at the man with bright eyes. "I see these things and have decided that for the good of the German-speaking zone certainly no candidate should be elected who calls himself a cleric but has no respect for the hierarchy and/or is willing to break with the faith and/or is willing to support people who have already broken with the faith".

"I have written a simple letter to two administrators that they are encouraged to select a specific candidate. Something that is fundamentally lost is the meaning of the word in German, because I did not give an order, but noted that this is how I see it and that it should therefore be chosen. I see this within my obligations and rights, because the Vatican did not regulate when we would vote or to whom we would give our votes. There was not even any indication that the Vatican would even decide on a candidate, so far we have only talked about inviting the candidates to come and talk to us. It was in this spirit that I made a decision for my zone. And the fact that Cesare is making common cause with the future Queen of the Germans, who was rejected as Queen by all the bishops of the German-speaking zone, only further supports my action" Oberon tended to put his head to one side and meant mildly. "If I wanted to imply that the Vatican has made a decision, I would have written "On the order of Rome, the instruction was given today that all the votes of the dioceses are to be given to candidate XY." Something that I have done in the past when the instructions came and cost me at least one cleric who would rather renounce his office than follow the hierarchy. Just a sidefact on that matter, Rabi was the cleric biggest suporter of Cesare in the moment. Furthermore, it also happened that no recommendation at all was made by the Vatican. In this sense, it is absurd to say that I made a mistake, at best one could argue that the Holy Father did not clarify his intentions in sufficient detail. Which is why I see no reason why we should apologise to any of the candidates for the fact that I made a decision where the Vatican has not wanted / could / wished / would / should (choose a subjunctive of your choice) to make a decision so far"

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Arnarion
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 25, 2020 4:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I have nothing to answer you and I don't want to. That's not the place or the moment to be talkative with you.

Don't keep attention to me and carry on the debate with the candidate.

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cesare.copona



Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 30, 2020 5:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

He began to sing. A fervent song. He sang loudlier after few words.

[...]
And by the blue welkin, thy starlit shroud,
And by Brother Sunshine, I want to shout :

My God, thou art great, thou art fair,
Living God, Almighty, thou art the God of love;
My God, thou art great, thou art fair,
Blessed Ay Lord, Most High God,
God standing in every shaping.

[...]


He sang the whole song during more than five minutes. After that, he marked a silence in which he closed his eyes. Then, he looked up, directly to the sky he couldn't see because of the roof and began to quote a prayer with full emotion and theatrical tone.

Most High God,
Father of mankind
And Almighty Strength,
Shutteth my ears
Against hankerings
And openest my eyes
To the endless love thou giveth me
Which I may then give to those who must get
Always knowing,
if I were not here,
Someone else would be there to do it.
For it is Thee who speaketh through my mouth.
And who worketh with my hands
...
Forgiveth to my brother, and to everyone else
For they do not know what they are doing.


He marked a new silence in which helooked at each person present here. And with a calm and sweet tone, he followed his speech.

A wise man, clever than ever, who was my teacher in theology, said to me : "Aristotelism is as a tree whose roots plunge deep into the soil. This soil is composed of God's Creation : the supernatural Order, the domain of the divine essence, the soul and the natural Order, the physical Order, that of material life. Each fruit is given by the grace of God and cannot live without the necessary nutrients provided by the tree. Each branch produces several fruits that ripen over time. But it happens that the tree can become sick from some parasites. These parasites feed on the tree, so that the nutrients from the soil no longer reach the top of the tree. Gangrene takes hold of it and quickly spreads to a few branches and reaches the fruit. The fruits, which were previously beautiful and healthy, wither, die and fall off.

The Church is the guardian of this tree. In the beginning, she watches over the ripening of its fruits, beautifies them, and protects them. If they become sick, she takes care of them and heals them. But sometimes the illness is too pronounced and threatens the whole tree with death. Then the sick branches must be cut down so that the tree can survive."

We don't know the origin of those parasites. Yes, we do : the Unnamed. But the parasites can come either from and external thing or from within the tree.

I don't want to be imposed the qualifier of defender of the Faith : I wish that at the end of my life His Holiness awards me with such a title for having do everything to destroy the parasites, no matter their origine, and heal the tree without ever cutting it. Heresy is like illness. And clerks are like healers. Sick persons are the concern of healers. And they have to do their best to heal. Hatred of the other leads to hatred of us. We're here for the love of God, this is the meaning of our lives : love.

I will be rude : most of the questions asked here are spiritual matters which concern only our Mother Church and don't require the interference of any crown. I understand that it is difficult to accept one's own failures, but one should never blame others and turn a blind eye to one's own problems. The emperor is only here to help, not to do the work instead of the Church.

About the rest of the questions, all of my public interventions for years and the whole person I am have already answered to them, such as the example of the Bulla Aurea which I've always publicly criticised. His Holiness himself entrusted me a title of pontifical noble, the archbishop of Besançon rewarded me of the order of Nicolas V for my services given for the benefit of the Church, and I was given the nickname "the Virtuous" during my mandate of regent of Franche-Comté.

Let me be clear : it is by insulting pious people that we're losing faithful. I will give my love as emperor. I will never feed hate. We're not hate. Only the unloved hates -the unloved and the unnamed. I will do what every true aristotelician has to do. And you will be able to witness and understand it at the proper time. But you've already know the answers to all of your questions, hence I don't need to repeat myself.

Of course, you are all invited to the coronation.

I won't be perfect. Only God is perfection. But I will do my best for aristotelism, in my way of doing : with love and rationality. Everything for the interest of the imperial citizens. And of course I'll be there for His Holiness.


He began to bowat each person present then stood up and lookedat Oberon.

Just one last thing :

Your administrators are perfectly trustworthy. They work for Our Mother Church for the love of God, and not for you personnaly. You are not His Holiness. You are not the Church. You are not God. Rome should reward them and protect them. And I will, as emperor, protect anyone who helped our Mother Church. Don't abuse too much of your precarious position, Monsignor. Because my first duty is to protect any imperial citizen agaisnt any danger.

May God bless you all.


He went out with the same smile he had when he arrived.
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    Kalixtus raised his brow.

    We note that the candidate did not answer any questions and left the room. The insults expressed must be judged elsewhere.

    The candidate has thus ended the debate for himself.

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