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[RP] Imperial Elections-meetings
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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 12:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Arduino sat in front of the guest. He smoothed the silk of the cassock with both hands and left them on his knees. Well, let's get started.

A servant handed him a glass of wine on a tray. He took it with his left hand and took a sip.

First of all, I would like to ask you what's your idea about the Bulla... aurea - he made a grimace. Unfortunately, it is dogmatically wrong. Alas, we didn't have time to make the former Emperor realize it. God accept his soul! He said, raising his eyes to the coffered ceiling.

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Decano del Sacro Collegio † Cardinale-vescovo † Prelato Plenipotenziario † Protonotario Apostolico † Arcivescovo di Pisa † Governatore del Patrimonio di Tito † Marchese di Santa Marinella † Conte di Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Fenice
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 6:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Yes, I underline the question
said the Chancellor.
I have read your program very carefully, and it speaks of Concordat, but not of the Bulla. It represents, in the current state of affairs, the main obstacle to the signing of a Concordat that is dogmatically correct.
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Kalixtus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 5:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

    Kalixtus smiled and he also poured Konsar of the wine and one of his acolytes handed him his black and his red book from behind. Both contained very different but equally important informations. With a fine graphite pencil he seriously noted down some information in the black book under a certain name while he listened and found the question comprehensible. As he noted them down on a white sheet of paper, it was well recognized that Kalixtus wrote mirror-inverted, a common peculiarity that should make it harder for anyone outside to decipher his words. In addition, his notes were in French and therefore confidential. In the meantime he felt the need to write, speak and think in his mother tongue. Perhaps a pallor of age. He let Konsar answer.

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Urbain_mastiggia



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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 01, 2019 6:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

He was here, with the others. After all, they were discussing about the future of the Empire, and obviously, of their faithfuls. He was quiet and discreet.
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Konsar



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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 01, 2019 11:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

So he had his drink in the hand and was already asked questions before he even had the chance to take a sip. However, he could also see that Kalixtus prepared something to write down already. While before being able to answer the question of the dean, Fenice asks something right away as well.
Oh well, let it begin then he thought. Before beginning though he looked to Kalixtus and grinned a little bit. Those who know him for quite some time might already know what was up.

”Your Eminence… Arduino was it?” He asked as he is not quite good with learning a lot of new names quickly and he came here with no retainer. Even though they were not that far away, as they arrived with him, but stayed outside of Rome did he not want to send a false signal. Before Gropius could answer, he continued ”By all respect… you are asking me what I think and yet you immediately state that it is dogmatically wrong. With this alone you are already imposing your point of view on me. Though I do not even want to speak out what you furthermore implied to me.”

This being said, he turned to Fenice. ”I am pleased to hear that you read my program. And I know of what it speaks and what not, because I meant what I wrote. For me those were not simply words to fill the program. And forgive me if I say this in such a blunt and direct way, but I do not see it as the main obstacle. As far as I am told and if I remember correctly, the main obstacle was – just as example – that you wanted special rights on imperial soil. So no, the Bulla Aurea is not the main obstacle why a concordat was not signed. Nor was the Bulla Aurea written because of it. However, I do not wish to speak about that now right away.”

Konsar then finally took his first sip and returned to Gropius ”So, for your question, as I still intend to answer it without the implications: What is my thinking of the Bulla Aurea? Well, that is a very general question of course. I would say ‘a law – an imperial one’. What does it do? As every law it has regulations written within it which were voted upon by the Imperial Diet and later signed by the late Emperor. Hence from a legal point of view, I see no problem there as in the Empire according to its constitution, only the constitution itself is above an imperial law. What about the content and intend? Well… honestly… even though I am most likely one of few people in the Empire who know nearly the entire legislation, I quite like the idea of this law to give a quick overview about important points of the Empire during moments of life and explains quite simple how the Empire works. And of course, I am aware that some regulations were added which did not exist before the enacting of the Bulla Aurea. And yet I also know that the Bulla Aurea went through the Imperial Diet and a lot of people agreed on it. And therefor I will respect it. That does of course not mean that it is perfect or that there will never be a need to revise it. But this in all should explain my thoughts on the Bulla Aurea.”
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Fenice
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 9:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

She looked at him and smiled. A gentle smile, accompanied by a slight shine of the eyes.

I am also a direct and frank person, even if my job is diplomacy, and I weigh my words. In my question, I didn't say that the Bulla was the obstacle to the signing of the concordat... also because, I'm not perfectly sure but I think I'm not wrong, it came later. I said that in the current state of affairs it is the main obstacle to the signing of the imperial concordat. Now.
The Bulla, in the parts concerning religion and the Church, goes against the Dogma. This statement is not a personal opinion, because the Dogma is written, and not by me or Gropius, the Dogma is the collection of the precepts of the Prophets and of those to whom the Most High spoke directly.
Can we define the word of the Most High as a personal opinion?

As for the failed discussion on the concordat, a long explanation would be necessary, because to say that we wanted rights on imperial soil expresses a very widespread misunderstanding, unfortunately, about what the Church is and represents in a concordat negotiation.
The Church is not a State with which a commercial, territorial, heraldic treaty is negotiated... the Church is something totally different, and it should not be seen as a foreign State that camps rights on the ground and the sovereignty of others.


She raised her cup smiling at him.
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Konsar



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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 9:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

He took a sip of the wine he got. “About the Bulla Aurea… I shall repeat it in a more clear way then. The Bulla Aurea is no obstacle. It is a law which has no effect on the spiritual work of the Church. There is nothing that was taken from the Aristotelian Church if you wish to say it that way but gives others a CIVIL right which does not damage the clerical right. And therefor it is even now not an obstacle. Hence the obstacle is the will to negotiate and personal opinion. Yes, personal opinion. And this brings us back your issue with the Bulla Aurea. Up to this day, all I heard was ‘it is against the Dogma’ and never even was one single quote provided. And as long as it is not quoted, it is an interpretation and hence a personal opinion. So if you still wish to say that it is against the Dogma, please show it to me as I am of course willing to learn.”

He then looked to Gropius and asked ”Do you still see a problem in the Bulla Aurea? If yes, be so kind to explain it in a more detailed way. And as I said, the Bulla Aurea is not perfect. And it might be revised under my reign anyway.” He then looked shortly to Kali and then back to Gropius ”It’s more like I planned indeed to speak about the Bulla Aurea anyways as I am not fully satisfied myself with it. But that will be with the council and the diet then to see how we revise it.”
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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 11:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Thanks for your willingness to dialogue and confrontation, this comforts my confidence in the Empire as a place of peace and Aristotelian coexistence.
I do not believe that this is the most opportune moment to discuss in detail the parts of the Bulla that openly contrast with the dogma, but I welcome with renewed hope and also enthusiasm your offer of dialogue.


He's having another sip of wine.

Speaking of other things, I would like to ask you for your opinion on the unilateral, arbitrary - and even rather silent - cancellation of the heraldic recognition between the Empire and the Church. Are you also going to proceed with the non-recognition of the papal nobility?

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Decano del Sacro Collegio † Cardinale-vescovo † Prelato Plenipotenziario † Protonotario Apostolico † Arcivescovo di Pisa † Governatore del Patrimonio di Tito † Marchese di Santa Marinella † Conte di Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Konsar



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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 05, 2019 9:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

So one did not want to talk about the Bulla Aurea any longer. That was fine with him and he simply nodded when the Dean said this. ”Of course. As I said, I am always available for a dialogue.”

And the topic moved towards the recognition of the papal nobility. Hearing that there is a non-recognition after Fenice’s speech, he looked quite confused.

”Your Eminence, forgive me when I ask and I misunderstood what was said. But didn’t the Cardinal just state that ‘The Church is not a State with which a […] heraldic treaty is negotiated... the Church is something totally different’. You see… I am quite confused now to hear the opposite from you... And could you explain to me what you mean by ‘the unilateral, arbitrary – and even rather silent – cancellation of the heraldic recognition’?”
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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 05, 2019 9:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

What does that mean? That's what I said. We have not been reached by any request from the Empire to renegotiate heraldic recognition nor have we seen any document cancelling that recognition.

Smiled.

Cardinal Fenice and I, who have to deal with the rulers, now almost automatically repeat the same rhyme: the Concordats have a dogmatic basis because the substratum of any discussion, whether territorial or heraldic, is always the Faith.

The Church is like a candle in the dark: it produces heat, melted wax, brightness, but the substratum is fire.

Fire is Faith and from fire descend the secondary phenomena that are territories, noble titles, relations with temporal powers.


He drank another sip of wine before continuing.

My dear guest, probably your thoughts could tell us more about what lies behind this expression of circumstance, but we are not sorcerers. I invite you to speak openly and answer us, if you so wish.

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Decano del Sacro Collegio † Cardinale-vescovo † Prelato Plenipotenziario † Protonotario Apostolico † Arcivescovo di Pisa † Governatore del Patrimonio di Tito † Marchese di Santa Marinella † Conte di Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Konsar



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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 06, 2019 5:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

“Your Eminence, but your words would mean that there once was a valid recognition. And as far as I am concerned, I do not know of any validated recognition of the papal nobility. Since I am not aware of such a recognition, I cannot say or guess what happened either.
That’s why I asked you to explain it. Can you show me such a recognition? Otherwise your words of ‘cancellation’ are still not explained to me and I must still wonder. Without more information I cannot express anything towards such a circumstance as I am not aware of such a circumstance.”
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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 09, 2019 1:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

By your words, I mean, in your opinion, there has never been a valid recognition? It seems to me that there was a document signed by the regent Jade de Sparte dating back to 1462 and which was then used as a treaty since the regent became the Empress and, as well as the imperial king of arms confirmed us some time ago, she ratified it. What do you mean, that we never had a treaty? However, for years the Empire has considered it valid and applied it, or was it just a coincidence?

He held his lips.

I'm just afraid that you want to disrespect us for some reason that we don't have. Or, you could confirm that treaty, if you think it should be confirmed again and you have nothing against it.

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Decano del Sacro Collegio † Cardinale-vescovo † Prelato Plenipotenziario † Protonotario Apostolico † Arcivescovo di Pisa † Governatore del Patrimonio di Tito † Marchese di Santa Marinella † Conte di Civitavecchia ♝Il cielo e la terra♗
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Konsar



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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 14, 2019 5:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

“As the Empress did not validate it… no there is no valid recognition. And even if the former King of Arms, whoever was it, said so, he does not have the authority to ratify something like this. And as you can see in the imperial announcements, the Empress never made ratification. And since I am not aware of it being applied, I cannot give you any information about this.”
And now Konsar had a question of his own. Maybe he could get some information out of this after all.
“You are most likely not aware but the empire has a rule that any imperial noble with a high function in a foreign realm looses access to the nobility’s hall. Now there is one noble who says that there are indeed nobles who hold positions in the church and hence should loose access.
Is that your view as well? And if not, why? And how would you explain it to such a noble=”
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Gropius
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 15, 2019 10:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

The Church assumes that the imperial institutions trust each other, even in succession over time, otherwise not only the Church, but no one would take for good and lasting the word of an Imperial Council of today. The King of Arms of that time confirmed the ratification to us, you are free to deny it.

But I ask you again: let us act as if there were no heraldic treaty; would you be willing to ratify one? Or are the French or German nobles more deserving of recognition than the nobles of Faith?


He placed a strand of his hair.

As for the imperial nobles who hold some role within the Church, the Church is not a Kingdom, as you should already know and how I tried to explain you by the example of the candle, but it is a universality of faithful. It's not a "foreign" or, worse, "hostile" kingdom, as some of your advisors may think. The answer is simple, then: those nobles to whom you refer are not officials of a state, but are members of the Church like any other faithful. Yourself are faithful, not for that reason you are not an imperial nobleman.

I myself, in periods of greater serenity, was Bishop and Imperial Vice-Chancellor, for example. In my hands the Chancellor and the Emperor placed part of the diplomacy of the Empire, without fearing that I would "plot" for a "foreign" and "hostile" "state".

An Aristotelian nobleman serving the Church should be an added value, my dear, should not be seen with suspicion.

Or do you prefer imperial nobles not to be Aristotelian believers? I honestly don't understand your question. It would be like demanding that the best men and women on earth - God-fearing and therefore "the best" - be penalized in favor of people worse than themselves.

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