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Sixtus Pape


Inscrit le: 03 Juil 2014 Messages: 4160 Localisation: Sur les rives du Tibre
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Posté le: Ven Déc 02, 2022 9:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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Unless there are new proposals, the dean can put the matter to the vote. _________________
Eskerrik asko Iñési sinaduragatik |
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Gropius Cardinal


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2015 Messages: 5433 Localisation: Roma, Palazzo Della Scala
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Posté le: Ven Déc 02, 2022 10:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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Brothers and sisters, as I predicted from the very beginning of this umpteenth unfortunate event, the Empire has continued along its programme of striking the Church down to its dogmatic foundations.
As you can read in the annexes, Magna Carta has been amended and the decree making civil unions cogent does not exclude the Aristotelian faithful from this institution (it only provides for the impossibility of civil unions if one of the two contracting parties is already married, but says no more).
At this point it is appropriate, in my opinion, for the Sacred College to speak publicly and with one voice, especially since we have witnessed the tendency of some, in this case Cardinal Kalixtus, to speak in the name of the Church without legitimacy and without the mandate of this Sacred College.
Exacerbating Cardinal Kalixtus' actions was his keeping us in the dark about this bill and supporting it even outside these halls.
We need a clear distance and a strong denunciation of the inadmissibility of this new 'matrimonial' institution.
What do you think?
Citation: |
[center]
Modification of the Magna Carta : A clarification of the past reforms and a revolution for rights[/center]
[hr]
From Us, Adaliena Gloriana Elise von Araja, divina favente Clementia Electa Romanorum Imperatrix Semper Augusta,
From Us, Raphaël Alexandre du Bois de Cendrecourt, Regent of the Holy Roman Empire,
From Us, Friederigo Gioele Adorno, President of the Imperial Diet,
To all citizens of the Holy Roman Empire,
To all who can read or hear it,
We announce today the passing and enactment of the new Magna Carta.
A vote was conducted on the modernization of the Imperial Constitution in the Imperial Diet. Nobles and Regents have approved votes 1 and 2 of the Imperial Constitution with very high majorities and a legitimate turnout.
VOTE 1 result
Nobility's Hall : In Favour 55 Against 6 Abstentions 5 = 90,16% in Favour
Regent's Hall : In Favour 13 Against 0 Abstention 2 = 100% in Favour
Turnout
Nobility's Hall : 51,16%
Regent's Hall : 75%
VOTE 2 result
Nobility's Hall : In Favour 64 Against 0 Abstention 1 = 100% in Favour
Regent's Hall : In Favour 14 Against 0 Abstention 1 = 100% in Favour
Turnout
Nobility's Hall : 50,38%
Regent's Hall : 75%
Here is a summary of what changes.
First of all, the first vote was about a historical change. For the very first time in recent imperial history, the Magna Carta will contain essential civil rights that imperial citizens will be entitled to in their daily lives. The new rights that have been added to the Imperial Constitution are "the right of entering into a civil union, founding a family, and writing a last will". The new formulation of the article is clear, imperial citizens can not be denied these rights. With all legal effects, any imperial citizen is now entitled to have his union with another recognized by heraldries and benefit from family and inheritance in provincial and imperial legislations.
Vote 2 was about several changes which are listed this way.
- Provinces are now called imperial States.
- Nobility Hall and Regent's Hall recover their official names traditionally used.
- The Third Estate is abrogated.
- The two articles of Chapter VII which have the same name are changed back in a coherent numeration.
- The emperor no longer needs to inform the Diet "in advance" for decisions which concern security reasons but the Regent's Hall will still be informed regularly as soon as the decision is taken and they can still remove any crisis decisions.
- The quorum for modifying the Imperial Constitution is clarified.
We want to thank the imperial nobles and provincial regents particulary for their trust and participation in the vote. This vote settles several questions and adds essential freedoms that were not covered by the imperial legislation untill then.
[center]Written, signed and sealed in Strasbourg on the 2nd day of November in the year of grace MCDLXX.
Her Imperial Majesty Adaliena Gloriana Elise von Araja
divina favente Clementia Electa Romanorum Imperatrix Semper Augusta
His Serene Ducal Highness Raphaël Alexandre du Bois de Cendrecourt
Regent of the Holy Roman Empire
His Greatness Friederigo Gioele Adorno
President of the Imperial Diet
[/center]
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Citation: |
[center]
Introduction of the new Charta for civil unions and call of application for the Imperial Civil Registry Office[/center]
[hr]
From Us, Adaliena Gloriana Elise von Araja, divina favente Clementia Electa Romanorum Imperatrix Semper Augusta,
From Us, Raphaël Alexandre du Bois de Cendrecourt, Regent of the Holy Roman Empire,
To all citizens of the Holy Roman Empire,
To all who can read or hear it,
As it has recently been announced, the new right of union has been instaured for imperial citizens. However the imperial legislation still applies. In Gratibus weddings can not be automatically recognized without a Res Parendo evidence. Also bigamy remains firmly banned.
This is why this day we announce that in the duty to give a real recognition to unions inside the empire, and to allow In Gratibus weddings to receive a legal recognition through the whole empire we sign a new Charta which creates the Imperial Registry Civil Office.
This new Office will be in charge of registering civil unions and make these official and legal through the whole empire. Ceremonies remain optional, however named officials will be able to perform these.
Due to the creation of this new civil office it is that we call for applications for the role of Grand Officer of the Imperial Civil Registry Office. If you want to help registering unions of imperial citizens, and serve the Empire but also citizens well, please write to her imperial majesty Adaliena von Araja [char]Adaliena[/char] or the Imperial Regent his serene ducal highness Raphaël Alexandre du Bois de Cendrecourt [char]Raphael_ii[/char] to present your candidacy.
The role of Grand Officer, or Officer of the Imperial Civil Registry Office is crucial as it will be the office that will give legality to unions by a single registration and which could also perform unions between citizens of the empire. This is a crucial social role. The requirements are as follow :
-Being an imperial citizen
-Not being sentenced for High Treason on the Empire within the last 12 months
-Not being named on the Imperial Blacklist
We are hopefull to start registering unions of imperial citizens pretty soon.
[center]Written, signed and sealed in Strasbourg on the 21st day of November in the year of grace MCDLXX.
Her Imperial Majesty Adaliena Gloriana Elise von Araja
divina favente Clementia Electa Romanorum Imperatrix Semper Augusta
His Serene Ducal Highness Raphaël Alexandre du Bois de Cendrecourt
Regent of the Holy Roman Empire
[/center]
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Citation: | [center] [/center]
[center]Charta of the Imperial Civil Registry Office[/center]
Preliminary article : The Imperial Civil Registry Office is created through this Charta. The Charta can be revised by the Holy Roman Emperor.
Chapter I - Composition
Art 1. The Imperial Civil Registry Office is composed of one Grand Officer and a College of Officers.
Art 2. The Grand Officer of the Civil Registry Office is appointed and dismissed by the Emperor or the Imperial Regent. The Grand Officer must be an imperial citizen.
Art 3. Officers are named by the Grand Officer. They must be imperial citizens.
Chapter II - Mission
Art 1. The first mission of the Imperial Civil Registry Office is to compile the registers of civil unions.
Art 2. The officers of the Imperial Civil Registry Office are in charge of performing civil unions between two people of whom at least one must be an imperial citizen.
Art 3. Civil unions may also be performed by a mayor, a provincial councilor, or a provincial regent after the approval of the Grand Officer.
Chapter III - Civil Union Procedure
Art 1. A civil union is the legal union of two people to the exclusion of all others which is voluntarily entered with the aim of lasting for life. A civil union cannot be entered by person under the age of 14 years.
Art 2. On pain of nullity, there may be no civil union:
1° Between ascendants and descendants in the direct line, between relatives in the direct line, and between collaterals up to and including the first degree;
2° Between two individuals, at least one of whom is bound by a religious marriage;
3° Between two individuals, at least one of whom is already bound by a civil union.
Art 3. Individuals entering a civil union shall report a declaration of agreement between them to the Imperial Civil Registry Office. The Imperial Civil Registry Office registers the declaration of agreement and issues a certificate of civil union.The two persons are considered united from the moment of the issuing of the certificate.The certificate must contain at least the full names of the couple, the date and place of the declaration, the signatures of the couple and the signature of the executing Officer.
Art 4. On request of the two people who want to enter the civil union, a civil ceremony can take place. The ceremony has to be held by an appointed person of the Imperial Civil Registry Office. The civil union must be reported to the Imperial Civil Registry Office by the performing officer with a certificate.
Chapter IV - Legal Status
Art 1. The civil union takes effect between the parties from its registration in the Imperial Civil Registry and has the equivalent secular rights attached as a religious wedding.
Art 2. The civil union between two spouses is recognized and receives legal value in the territories and provinces of the Empire and within Imperial and Provincial Institutions as long as it respects the procedural conditions.
Art 3. A civil union lasts until the death of one of the partners if it is not dissolved beforehand.
Art 4. Civil unions can be dissolved at the request of one of the parties. To be official, the dissolution must be validated by the Imperial Civil Registry Office with a certificate.
Art 5. Imperial and Local heraldries' regulations remain unchanged for the recognition of official families.
[center]Signed and sealed in the Imperial Palace of Strasburg on the 17th day of November in the year of Grace MCDLXX.
Her Imperial Majesty Adaliena Gloriana Elise von Araja
divina favente Clementia Electa Romanorum Imperatrix Semper Augusta
[/center]
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_________________
Cardinal-Bishop † Dean of the Sacred College of Cardinals † Grand Audiencier of the Holy See † Vice Chancellor of the Pontifical Chancellery † Archbishop of Strasbourg † Governor of the Patrimony of Titus † Prince of Viterbo † Marquis of Santa Marinella ♝Il cielo e la terra♗ |
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Adonnis Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2018 Messages: 5149 Localisation: Monte Real/Leiria - Palazzo Taverna/Roma
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Posté le: Ven Déc 02, 2022 10:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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I agree. Not only to reaffirm that this kind of institute is totally at odds with Dogma and Canon Law, but also to confirm that, although the proposal has the support and agreement of Kalixtus, this agreement does not imprint the official position of the Church.
At the same time, we determine the inclusion of the texts in the Index. _________________
.....Cardinal-Presbyter of Saint Anthony of the Portuguese / Grand Audiencier of the Holy See / General Inquisitor of Portugal
...............Primate of Portugal / Metropolitan Archbishop of Braga / Bishop of Vila Real / Duke of Monte Real |
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Fenice Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Déc 2010 Messages: 12310
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Posté le: Ven Déc 02, 2022 10:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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It is time to speak with one voice, clear and strong, and to make it known that the Church is not what Kalixtus presents on the outside.
I agree. _________________
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Roderic_ Cardinal


Inscrit le: 31 Mar 2020 Messages: 2145 Localisation: Rome et la Principauté de Catalogne
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 10:09 am Sujet du message: |
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It is time to speak with one voice _________________
Cardinal Bishop // Cardinal Vicar Grand Inquisitor // Prelate of Honour of His Holiness //
Archbishop sine cura of Sassari and Urbino // Bishop sine cura of Urgell // Chancellor of the Order of Saint Nicolas V . |
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Ulli Cardinal

Inscrit le: 10 Avr 2008 Messages: 716 Localisation: Konstanz
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 10:18 am Sujet du message: |
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Many years ago, when I was ordained a priest, there was a conversation with the faithful that you want to be baptized, that you want to have your children baptized. the priests' diary was full, the people deep in faith. Then came the "Rome" and many changes.
Suddenly it was no longer enough to have a conversation with the believers, baptismal lessons had to be held, the inquiries became fewer and the first "apostates" appeared to poison people's heads with their heresies. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it was strengthened by the bureaucracy because suddenly you had to take an exam for baptism lessons to show whether you understood the faith.
Someone who is baptized stands at the beginning of faith, at the beginning of a long path that he wants to walk together with our Lord.
The current nobles are exactly from this generation, we had this issue in the German Reich I think 5 to 10 years ago and were able to prevent it with great effort, but I was sure that it would come back at some point.
In my humble opinion, the whole thing is due to the fact that people's "access" to the church for the sacrament of baptism is made "bureaucratic".
The nobles who are not baptized have no right to found a family without a family, no descendants, without descendants, no inheritance, so every effort is made to preserve and pass on the name, and we now have exactly this result in the form of the change in the Magna Carte.
Vor vielen Jahren, als ich zum Priester geweiht wurde, gab es ein Gespräch mit den Gläubigen, das Sie getauft werden wollen, das Sie Ihre Kinder taufen lassen wollen. der Terminkalender der Priester war voll die Menschen tief im Glauben. Dann kahm die "Rom" und viele Änderungen.
Plötzlich reichte es nicht mehr mit den Gläubigen ein Gespräch zu führen es musste ein Taufunterricht abgehalten werden, die Anfragen wurden weniger und die ersten "abtrünnigen" sind aufgetaucht um die Köpfe der Menschen mit Ihren Irrlehren zu vergiften. Leider wurde es durch die Bürokratie meiner Meinung nach bestärkt da man plötzlich zum Taufunterricht auch noch eine Prüfung ablegen musste, um zu zeigen ob man den Glauben verstand.
Jemand der sich Taufen läst steht am Anfang des Glaubens, am Anfang eines langen weges den er zusammen mit unsrem Herrn beschreiten will.
Die jetzigen Adeligen sind genau aus dieser Generation, dieses Thema hatten wir im Deutschen Reich schon vor ich denke so 5 bis 10 Jahren und konnten es zwar mit mühe und not verhindern, aber ich war mir sicher das es irgendwann wieder kommen wird.
Meiner bescheidenen Meinung nach ist das ganze dem Geschuldet, das den Menschen der "Zugang" zur Kirche zum Sakrament der Taufe "Bürokratisch" gemacht wird.
Den gerade Adelige die nicht getauft sind haben kein Anrecht darauf eine Familie zu Gründen ohne Familie kein Nachkommen ohne Nachkommen kein Erbe also wird versucht mit allen Mitteln der Name zu erhalten und weiterzugeben und genau dieses ergebnis haben wir nun in Form der Änderung in der Magna Carte. |
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Gropius Cardinal


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2015 Messages: 5433 Localisation: Roma, Palazzo Della Scala
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 11:18 am Sujet du message: |
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Brother Ulli, you have the same tendency as Brother Kalixtus to absolve those who demand facilities and shortcuts and justify their actions contrary to dogma and the church. Today's faithful are lazy, listless, barely literate, have no desire to commit themselves to anything, and the nobles are, as always, the worst expression of this. Shall we close the Congregation for the Dissemination of the Faith? Well, let us put it to a vote.
The Faith is a serious matter, not a bureaucratic matter. Approaching it should not be a toil, but a joy, and how can we rejoice in something we do not know? However, Brother Ulli, you have raised an important question and in my opinion we must discuss it in a separate debate, which I will open. If we need to rejuvenate ourselves, we will do so, but without justifying the degenerate behaviour of the 'new generations'. _________________
Cardinal-Bishop † Dean of the Sacred College of Cardinals † Grand Audiencier of the Holy See † Vice Chancellor of the Pontifical Chancellery † Archbishop of Strasbourg † Governor of the Patrimony of Titus † Prince of Viterbo † Marquis of Santa Marinella ♝Il cielo e la terra♗ |
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Pie de Valence Cardinal


Inscrit le: 04 Nov 2012 Messages: 7810 Localisation: Langres/Joinville
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 11:51 am Sujet du message: |
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FR : Est-ce que nous avons les moyens de déclarer, d'une façon ou d'une autre, la guerre au Saint-Empire ? Est-ce que nous avons les ressources matérielles et humaines pour ? Est-ce que nos Saintes-Armées sont prêtes à intervenir ?
Si c'est oui, alors parlons fort, mais si c'est non, l'Eglise va connaître le même sort qu'en France à l'époque d'Eusaïas et elle ne s'en est jamais totalement remise.
Donc, si nous n'avons pas les moyens matériels et humains de faire la guerre au Saint-Empire, mieux vaut adopter une attitude déplorant la situation, comme je le préconisais plus haut.
Adopter la politique de nos moyens, nous n'avons pas le choix.
Citation: | Notre Eglise déplore la décision de l'Empire de ne plus s'inspirer de la morale aristotélicienne pour définir ses lois et d'avoir entamé une séparation de l'Eglise et de l'Etat. Puisqu'il en est ainsi, cette nouvelle loi civile ne saurait contraindre l'Eglise à s'y plier. Par conséquent, l'Eglise, au regard du droit canon et de son dogme qui seul s'applique au sein de l'Eglise et à ses fidèles, continuera à ne pas reconnaître la légalité religieuse de telles unions. |
IT : Abbiamo i mezzi per dichiarare guerra al Sacro Impero? Abbiamo le risorse materiali e umane necessarie? Le nostre Sante Armate sono pronte ad intervenire ?
Se è così, allora parliamo forte, ma se è no, la Chiesa conoscerà la stessa sorte che in Francia all'epoca degli Eusaia e non si è mai completamente ripresa.
Quindi, se non abbiamo i mezzi materiali e umani per fare la guerra contro il Sacro Impero, è meglio adottare un atteggiamento deplorevole, come ho raccomandato sopra. Non abbiamo altra scelta.
Citation: | La nostra Chiesa deplora la decisione dell'Impero di non ispirarsi più alla morale aristotelica per definire le sue leggi e di aver avviato una separazione tra Chiesa e Stato. Poiché così è, questa nuova legge civile non potrebbe costringere la Chiesa a piegarsi ad essa. Di conseguenza, la Chiesa, alla luce del diritto canonico e del suo dogma che solo si applica in seno alla Chiesa e ai suoi fedeli, continuerà a non riconoscere la legalità religiosa di tali unioni. |
ANG : Do we have the means to declare war on the Holy Empire in any way? Do we have the material and human resources for? Are our Holy Armies ready to intervene?
If it is yes, then let us speak loudly, but if it is no, the Church will experience the same fate as in France at the time of Eusaïas and it has never fully recovered.
So, if we do not have the material and human means to wage war against the Holy Empire, it is better to adopt an attitude deploring the situation, as I advocated above. We have no choice.
Citation: | Our Church deplores the decision of the Empire to no longer draw inspiration from Aristotelian morality to define its laws and to have begun a separation of Church and State. Since this is the case, this new civil law cannot force the Church to comply. Consequently, the Church, in view of the canon law and its dogma which only applies within the Church and to her faithful, will continue not to recognize the religious legality of such unions. [/b] |
_________________ "Le modernisme n'est ni une dérive, ni une horreur, ni une maladie honteuse. C'est le terreau de la rénovation de l'Eglise, la terreur des conservateurs, l'air pur qui vivifiera la foi" (Pie II de Valence)
"On n'est jamais dans le mensonge quand on prêche la paix et l'apaisement, toujours quand on prêche la haine d'autrui" (Pie II de Valence) |
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Cathelineau Cardinal


Inscrit le: 21 Fév 2015 Messages: 4281 Localisation: Château de Quintin
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 3:13 pm Sujet du message: |
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It is obvious that we do not have the human means to make war on the Empire, we only have them to make war on a small duchy... Our approval is worth nothing, our troops scattered and the command n is not operational. We must condemn and excommunicate. By doing this we disapprove of Kalixtus, are we really doing this? _________________
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heldor Cardinal


Inscrit le: 18 Nov 2008 Messages: 2695 Localisation: Venezia - Italia
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 3:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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I honestly think that what has been written on Magna Carta is a direct provocation to the Aristotelian Church which must be crushed, without ifs and buts, using diplomacy and at the same time preparing to use all the weapons at our disposal: excommunication, interdict, etc.
We must act with diplomacy to form a square with the other Aristotelian states, even within the Empire, in order to test the ground to understand how far we can go, at the same time with the interdict of the sacraments in the lands that will apply what is written in the Magna Carta, we will begin to apply pressure, then excommunicating, if necessary, the signatories of the document and the rulers who will apply it!
When will people understand that without being able to be baptized, without noble titles being recognized by the Aristotelian realms, without the dead being buried with the religious rite, life is not as simple as they thought it would be with "civil unions", at least, not with these "civil unions"!
But I agree with brother Ulli, which I have been arguing for a long time, that the Church, not the Aristotelian Faith, has become an immense bureaucratic machine, sometimes complex for us who have been here for a lifetime, I don't want to imagine what it looks like for those who overlook our world from the outside!
ah, regarding the intervention of brother Kalixtus, I don't know how much we can count on: Absences _________________ +S.Ecc.Ill.ma frà Tebaldo Foscari detto Heldor il randello
Cardinale Vescovo Emerito di San Domenico in Burgos
Primate delle Venezie e Stato da Mar
Legato Apostolico per le Venezie e Stato da Mar
Patriarca Metropolita di Venezia
Arcivescovo Sine Cura di Gorizia
Padre Generale dell'Ordine di San Domenico,
Conte di Sezze
ecc.
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silvio_1 Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Mar 2015 Messages: 3601
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 6:34 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ha ragione il Cardinale Ulli, tanti anni sono passati. Una volta tanti credenti chiedevano i sacramenti , le liste erano lunghe per i Sacerdoti.
I Sacramenti erano voluti. Le scomuniche erano poche ed erano dirette alle streghe o agli eretici convinti, ma in quantità minore ai fedeli che agivano male.
Poi abbiamo voluto modernizzare la Chiesa, che invece di andare "avanti" ha fatto mille passi indietro.
E sono aumentati i culti eretici, abbiamo perso tanti fedeli che non credono più nella Chiesa.
Fratello Ulli , tanti dei nostri fratelli sono cresciuti nel Monastero di San Domenico. ma ora hanno dimenticato che là è stata insegnata loro la catechesi o la Pastorale, per sposarsi hanno seguito il corso prematrimoniale, un tempo gestito dal buon padre Tacuma, per essere ordinati hanno seguito i corsi sacerdotali.
Nessuno si lamentava di venire a imparare.
Ma le cose sono cambiate, i fedeli si sono allontanati e danno la colpa alla Chiesa.
Forse sarebbe da porsi la domanda: Perché?
Chiediamocelo perché i fedeli si sono allontanati.
Non abbiamo forze per andare contro l'impero con le armi, sono d'accordo di mettere le parti della Charta eretica all'Indice
Ma la colpa è solo del Cardinal Kalixtus?
Certo ha fatto degli errori molto gravi, sono in tanti a dire che ha venduto la Chiesa per un titolo nobiliare.
Ma ci sono altre persone che per vendetta personale stanno alimentando la scontentezza dei fedeli, mettendo così l'Impero e la politica contro di noi e la Chiesa nelle mani dell'Impero.
Ogni volta che i chierici pensano a se stessi, alle proprie gelosie, per esempio rifiutando di concedere il Nulla Osta ai nobili imperiali per ricevere il richiesto Battesimo celebrato da un Sacerdote in un'altra parrocchia, noi diamo a questi fedeli la chiara idea che non ci importi di loro e della loro fede, ma soltanto delle nostre dispute. Non è una vergogna, questa?
Cardinal Ulli is right, many years have passed. Once many believers asked for the sacraments , the lists were long for priests.
The Sacraments were wanted. The excommunications were few and were directed to witches or convinced heretics, but in lesser quantities to the faithful who acted badly.
Then we wanted to modernize the Church, which instead of going "forward" has taken a thousand steps back.
And heretical cults have increased, we have lost many faithful who no longer believe in the Church.
Brother Ulli , many of our brothers grew up in the Monastery of San Domenico. but now they forgot that there was taught catechesis or Pastoral, to marry they followed the pre-wedding course, once run by good father Tacuma, to be ordained they followed the priestly courses.
No one complained about coming to learn.
But things have changed, the faithful have moved away and blame the Church.
Perhaps the question should be asked: Why?
Let us ask why the faithful have departed.
We have no forces to go against the empire with weapons, I agree to put the heretical Charter parts to the Index
But is it only Cardinal Kalixtus' fault?
Certainly he made some very serious mistakes, there are many who say that he sold the Church for a title of nobility.
But there are other people who for personal revenge are fueling the discontent of the faithful, thus putting the Empire and the policy against us and the Church in the hands of the Empire.
Whenever clerics think of themselves, their jealousies, for example, refusing to grant the Nulla Osta to imperial nobles to receive the requested Baptism celebrated by a Priest in another parish, we give these faithful the clear idea that we do not care about them and their faith, but only about our disputes. Isn’t that a shame? _________________
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Ulli Cardinal

Inscrit le: 10 Avr 2008 Messages: 716 Localisation: Konstanz
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 7:08 pm Sujet du message: |
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Brother Gropius, by no means do I have the same tendency as Brother Kalixtus, I am against marriage outside the Church, but I can understand the reason why it all happened and we have to look at ourselves, who we are the guilty with all the bureaucracy we built. How can we ask a child to attend a baptismal class with an exam to test the child's faith.
Access for believers to the church, to baptism, which is the first step, is made so difficult that the following steps no longer want to be taken.
What is now in the Magna Carta is the receipt we received for it.
Did any of the brothers and sisters present here have to attend such a baptismal course with an examination, I mean really for baptism and not the course for training to become a cleric
Bruder Gropius, mitnichten habe ich die gleiche Tendenz wie Bruder Kalixtus, ich bin gegegen eine Ehe außerhalb der Kirche, aber ich kann den Grund verstehen warum es zu dem ganzen gekommen ist, und da müssen wir uns an die eigene Nase packen, den wir sind die schuldigen mit der ganzen Bürokratie die wir aufgebaut haben. Wie können wir von einem Kind verlangen das es einen Taufunterricht mit angeschlossener Prüfung besucht um den Glauben des Kindes zu prüfen.
Der Zugang für die Gläubigen zur Kirche, zur Taufe was der erste Schritt ist der wird einem schon so schwer gemacht das die folgenden Schritte erst gar nicht mehr gemacht werden wollen.
Das was nun in der Magna Carta steht ist die Quittung die wir dafür erhalten haben.
Musste einer von den hier anwesenden Brüder und Schwestern einen solchen Taufunterricht mit Prüfung besuchen, ich meine wirklich für die Taufe und nicht den Kurs für die Ausbildung zum Kleriker |
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silvio_1 Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Mar 2015 Messages: 3601
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 7:28 pm Sujet du message: |
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Io si fratello , ho seguito la pastorale per ricevere il battesimo e poi le pastorali per diventare chierico.
E tanti altri corsi, e non sono pentito , anzi sono contento.
Ma resta il fatto che troppa burocrazia o imposizioni non fanno bene
a nessuno
Serve sempre la dose giusta
, I did, brother, I followed the pastoral to receive baptism and then the pastoral to become a cleric.
And many other courses, and I am not sorry, indeed I am happy.
But the fact remains that too much bureaucracy or impositions are not good
to anyone
Always need the right dose _________________
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Gropius Cardinal


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2015 Messages: 5433 Localisation: Roma, Palazzo Della Scala
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 9:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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It is a shame, Silvio, that you try to turn a personal quarrel of yours into a general problem. And here I will stop because I do not want this discussion to become something else and I invite you not to reply on this subject.
Having said that, I believe that excessive bureaucracy is not the main cause of the disenchantment of a part of the faithful; I believe it is the fraudulent advisors who for years have acted for their own personal gain, giving the Church a totally wrong image. As far as I am concerned, Canon Law does not provide for a compulsory course before baptism.
However, I repeat, we will open a special debate on this and I ask that we do not continue further because we are off topic. _________________
Cardinal-Bishop † Dean of the Sacred College of Cardinals † Grand Audiencier of the Holy See † Vice Chancellor of the Pontifical Chancellery † Archbishop of Strasbourg † Governor of the Patrimony of Titus † Prince of Viterbo † Marquis of Santa Marinella ♝Il cielo e la terra♗ |
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Adonnis Cardinal


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2018 Messages: 5149 Localisation: Monte Real/Leiria - Palazzo Taverna/Roma
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Posté le: Sam Déc 03, 2022 9:19 pm Sujet du message: |
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I agree that today we have a level of bureaucracy in some sectors that we could review in order to facilitate the life of the faithful. But this also requires reflection and analysis, in order not to confuse bureaucracy with necessary formality, especially in official and solemn matters.
But I am seeing here the formation of a syllogism, in which one of the premises, in my view, has no fundamental basis.
The Canon Law states that it is necessary to carry out Pastoral Care, let's see: "Article 4: The Church recommends the believer to follow, and the priest to lead, according to the doctrines and teaching of the Church validated by the prefecture for the Aristotelian teaching, before receiving the sacrament (not applicable to Cdn. 1-I-A-5).".
However, the same CIC states that the Episcopal Assemblies can establish norms about the realization of Pastoral Care, either by making them facultative, partial or even obligatory.
In Portugal I established the Pastoral course as obligatory, as a way to change, in the long run, a trend practiced for years of negligent priests and bishops who performed mass baptisms for faithful who were not even oriented about who was Aristotle and Christos and the difference of each one. In fact, many of these faithful became priests and bishops without having any minimum basis, not even for themselves, let alone for teaching.
On the other hand, I have not and do not intend to establish mandatory pastoral training in any of the language regions in which the Congregation for the New Apostolate operates. In such cases, Cardinal Francesco and I "suggest" when we are aware that it will be productive or, otherwise, we carry out an informal pastoral care just explaining the basics of religion, through a simple, practical, objective and not at all prolix dialogue.
Of course, each Episcopal Assembly can and should decide on this with its own knowledge of its own area. So while I know that Kalixtus practices obligatory pastoral's formal teaching in the German region (a measure I particularly agree with), I am not aware that the Episcopal Assembly of the Holy Empire has decided that a formal course of pastoral teaching in the PUSA or another seminary is obligatory for baptism to take place.
So where did the premise that this is mandatory in SRING (the region where this civil union nonsense was born and the place of residence of Silvio and Ulli that this mandatory issue emerged from) come from?
By the way, this is not even a recent change. The CIC that deals with baptism was approved 11 years ago. So, although I am not aware that the Episcopal Assembly of the Holy Empire has approved the rule of obligatory formal pastoral study for baptism, I invite Cardinal Ulli and Cardinal Silvio to start a debate with the grounds for repealing this rule, if they wish. From the result of the debate, it is possible that the Sacred College will approve a Pontifical Indult to suppress this rule, or else formalize a suggestion to the Holy Father, if he expresses the desire to take care of it personally.
Likewise, I invite all the cardinals to promote the opening of a proper debate to discuss issues that are outside the focus of the present discussion: to issue a formal position of the Sacred College, in the name of the Church, about Civil Union.
By the way Brother Ulli, Canon Law has a clear exception in this regard for children or other people without the ability to understand, see: "Article 5: Children and other people being incapable of understanding the teachings can be baptized if parents, guardians or sponsors agree to provide Aristotelian education and spiritual support according to the doctrines of the Church.".
So it will definitely not be necessary to ask a child to go to University. _________________
.....Cardinal-Presbyter of Saint Anthony of the Portuguese / Grand Audiencier of the Holy See / General Inquisitor of Portugal
...............Primate of Portugal / Metropolitan Archbishop of Braga / Bishop of Vila Real / Duke of Monte Real |
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